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Gold carry Trade - Short squeeze!

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Economy, Markets and commodities
Forum Name: Bullion - Wil it come back in demand?
Forum Discription: Marc faber, Jim Rogers have all opined that gold and silver will be in deamnd. Marc opines that the Gold should outperform the S&P 500 over the next decade. What do you say
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=518
Printed Date: 07/May/2025 at 4:24pm


Topic: Gold carry Trade - Short squeeze!
Posted By: manishdave
Subject: Gold carry Trade - Short squeeze!
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2006 at 7:33am

bubblevision,

Since you are visitor to gold-eagle, you must be aware of gold carry trade. If you find that link, it is going to be very interesting for members. I saw that long time back and they also posted link of fed that confirms trade. Accodrind to them I think Chase abd Citi bank are already under water.



Replies:
Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2006 at 12:16pm
Hi Manish,
Yes i visit gold eagle as is a lovely site and i always read the weekly commentries of "Adam Hamilton", who i my opinion is a wonderful analyst and his way to look at things technically is very good. However i dont read any other commenteries as they are BS. The other commentries are all for only gold bugs and NOT for realists who want to make money.
 
I have so far not read about Gold-Carry trade...I will try and searching for it as it would be very very significant.
I personally track Gold in 6 Different Currencies to see its real strength...That is in Euros, Pound, Dollars, Yen, Australian $, And the Indian rupee. If Gold is moving in a particular direction in all the currencies...I trade. Otherwise there are various cross movements which effect Gold prodicing just noise.
 
I will search for the link on Gold carry trade and try posting it. Thanks for informing me.
 
The biggest Carrys curerntly are $-Yen and $-CHF among the majors and NZD-YEN and AUD-YEN among the crosses. I look at these to see the sighns of carry unwinding....
 
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2006 at 12:41pm
Manish.... i found two links on Gold carry trade....They are http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_01/puplava042801.html - Here and http://www.zealllc.com/commentary/gcarry.htm - here ....I will read them and post my views some time later on in the week.

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2006 at 10:25pm

Let me put here what "Gold Carry Trade" in short based on past reading for forum members. Later on you can post your views.
 
According to gold bugs some US banks (MostlyChase/citi/GS) "borrowed" gold from US FED and sold in to market. Rate on interest on that LOAN was .75% and understanding is they will return gold at some point. Banks considered gold is "DEAD" asset and they would be able to repurchase at same price. They purchased bonds with money they got after selling gold and difference between interest rate was their profit. But then gold started moving up and to keep the price low they sold more. According to GOLD BUGS their total short position is 15,000 tons(yes tons no typo) and their selling price is abt $250/ounce. Total global gold production is 2500tons/years. At current price short position is $300 Billion and their loss is $150b and if they are forced to cover, imagine price of gold and loss. Financial WMD as WB said.
 
About GOLD BUGS: They are very very fanatic when it comes to gold. I would not believe them blindly but they support their argument about this loan thing by showing link of US FED, so you have to believe them. For SIZE of trade also they show some links from bank reports. CHase bank also fired their bullion manager in 2001 or 2002.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2006 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by manishdave


Let me put here what "Gold Carry Trade" in short based on past reading for forum members. Later on you can post your views.
 
According to gold bugs some US banks (MostlyChase/citi/GS) "borrowed" gold from US FED and sold in to market. Rate on interest on that LOAN was .75% and understanding is they will return gold at some point. Banks considered gold is "DEAD" asset and they would be able to repurchase at same price. They purchased bonds with money they got after selling gold and difference between interest rate was their profit. But then gold started moving up and to keep the price low they sold more. According to GOLD BUGS their total short position is 15,000 tons(yes tons no typo) and their selling price is abt $250/ounce. Total global gold production is 2500tons/years. At current price short position is $300 Billion and their loss is $150b and if they are forced to cover, imagine price of gold and loss. Financial WMD as WB said.
 
About GOLD BUGS: They are very very fanatic when it comes to gold. I would not believe them blindly but they support their argument about this loan thing by showing link of US FED, so you have to believe them. For SIZE of trade also they show some links from bank reports. CHase bank also fired their bullion manager in 2001 or 2002.
 
Wow! Now did the FED lend on margin if not this has the power to take some Banks to chapter 11. Who says Bankers take all logical decisions all the time. Takes me to the old Keynesian saying
 
"Markets can stay irrational longer then you can stay solvent  (even though you are a Bank)".


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 22/Oct/2006 at 3:24pm
Who says Bankers take all logical decisions all the time.
--------------------
 
Exactly, who says that....The BOE (BANK OF ENGLAND) Sold more than half of their reserves between 1999 and 2001 at a 20-Year low at an average price of $275.00 per ounce (approx). Recently, in July, when Gold fell from $640 to $560 in 10-days, the Bundesbank and the ECB were the reported sellers. Infact the European central bank have an yearly commitment to sell a fixed quantity of gold every year. These figures are reported by the BIS (Bank for International Settlements) annually.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 7:24am
from Fullermoney.com
 
IMF advised to sell $6.6bn of gold - My thanks to a subscriber for this http://www.fullermoney.com/content/2007-02-01/FT-IMFAdvisedToSell$6.6bnOfGold31Jan07.pdf - article by Krishna Guha for the Financial Times. Here is the opening:

The International Monetary Fund should sell gold worth $6.6bn (£3.4bn) and invest the proceeds in higher-yielding assets as part of a strategy to put its finances on a sound, long-term footing, an expert panel recommended on Wednesday. The experts also advised that the IMF should charge for the bilateral technical assistance it provides to countries, although they said arrangements should be made to ensure poor countries continued to benefit from IMF help. The panel included Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the US Federal Reserve, and Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank. It estimated that the sale of 400 tonnes of gold would create an endowment fund that would earn the IMF $195m a year in additional revenues after inflation.  The IMF holds 3,217 tonnes of gold in total. The panel recommended that the world's central banks reduce their planned gold sales - set out in an international accord - by an equivalent amount so as to offset the effect of the IMF sale on the world gold market. The IMF faces long-term financial problems because its traditional source of revenue - profits on lending - has dried up as countries have paid back giant loans extended during financial crises. The extra money is needed to help plug an estimated shortfall of $400m a year in the IMF's current income and expenses by 2010. The IMF is funding current activities in part by drawing on its reserves - not sustainable in the long run. The panel recommends that the IMF put some of the quota money subscribed by IMF shareholder governments to work in capital markets. This could involve very large sums, with the panel floating the idea of investing $30bn. It estimates that this could earn the IMF about $300m a year after paying interest on the quota money to the governments providing it. It suggests loosening the rules governing how the IMF invests its existing $9bn reserves in an attempt to boost its income.

FullerMoney View - Shades of Gordon Brown! For those less familiar with the UK's questionable governance, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer sold 300 tonnes of the nation's http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/05/08/ngol08.html - gold reserves at just $275 and ounce, just about picking the market bottom.

Now a panel of experts (surely an oxymoron) want the IMF to sell its gold, because it is earning less from loan money now that fewer countries are in dire economic straits. I have a better idea - downsize the IMF.



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 14/Mar/2007 at 4:29pm
While working for a project on "Swiss-Carry Trade"...
 
I found out these three links which clearly says what the SNB (Swiss National Bank) did.
 

They SOLD Gold at multi-decade lows just as a powerful bull market was emerging

 

http://www.snb.ch/e/aktuelles/index.html?file=pressemit/content_mit.html - Link 1

 

http://www.snb.ch/e/aktuelles/pressemit/pre_010323.html - Link 2

 

http://www.snb.ch/e/aktuelles/pressemit/pre_010925.html - Link 3

 
http://www.snb.ch/e/aktuelles/pressemit/pre_020926.html - Link 4
 
Who says Central Banks are smart. They got no chocolates for this from their local people.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 30/Mar/2007 at 10:40am
If My Data is correct ...Yesterday was the highest ever monthly closing for Gold!!!

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 04/Jun/2007 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Posted on 21-Oct-2006.

bubblevision,

Since you are visitor to gold-eagle, you must be aware of gold carry trade. If you find that link, it is going to be very interesting for members. I saw that long time back and they also posted link of fed that confirms trade. Accodrind to them I think Chase abd Citi bank are already under water.
 
 
Manish Dave Ji.....Bang On!!!Clap
 
J P Morgan took took Gold Delivery of $1 bio worth via comex on Friday. They clearly have something on their books they are starting to feel the heat on.
 
Also stories now are being spoken about in thin voices.....Could see a panic run higher in gold going forward.
Now let us see what happens going forward!!!
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 04/Jun/2007 at 11:15pm
"Central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise."
-- Alan Greenspan, testimony to Congress on July 24, 1998
 
Lets see if they dare to lease more. Nobody knows exact amount of lease but if floating figure is correct, Banks and Fed will lose people's trust in future, for reasons. Remember queues at ICICI?
 
After 2012 20% global zinc mines go out of production due to depletion. Supply is already tight right now and there are some new mines coming in production betn now and 2010. But after 2012(or before) we may see mini uraniium rally in zinc. Zinc is mostly used in galvanizing and you need only 3% zinc so there is some real pricing power when supply is not enough.
 


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 05/Jun/2007 at 10:54pm
Thanks Manish Ji....

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 20/Sep/2007 at 10:05pm

A Secret Time Bomb Made of Gold
September 12, 2007

THE VOLATILITY SEEN THIS QUARTER IN the stock and credit markets may be new to younger investors. But there is something lurking out there that can make things really dicey.

A little-known fountain of free money called the "gold carry trade" is in danger of drying up. And if it does, then markets from gold to bonds and even stocks can be in for a wild ride.

Before even explaining what the gold carry trade entails, let me first say that its demise has been forecast for nearly a decade. In researching this topic, I found articles as far back as 1998 looking for an explosion in gold prices and commensurate damage to other markets, if not the economy. In other words, this is a story that is as old as Methuselah.

But with a sinking dollar, soaring commodities, and several diverse technical conditions on the charts, the dynamics are coming together to make the end of the gold carry trade a lot closer to reality than ever before.

The gold carry trade is similar to the yen carry trade, which has been a hot topic in the markets this year. Basically, money is borrowed from one source at a low interest rate and invested elsewhere at a higher rate. As long as relevant exchange rates and asset prices remain stable, a profit is made with little effort.

Central banks are sitting on huge supplies of gold that earn them no interest and cost them money just to store securely. To earn a little revenue on these static assets, they loan their gold to banks, called buillon banks, at a ridiculously low interest rate on the order of 1%.

The banks turn around and sell the gold in the market, typically in the London bullion market, and invest the proceeds in a higher-paying asset, such as long-term Treasury bonds. If bonds pay 4.6% then the banks earn an easy 3.6%.

The problem is that if the gold price starts to rise, profits can be wiped out or turned to losses. And in today's market, a falling dollar not only boosts gold prices but it also makes Treasury bonds less attractive to foreign investors. That reduces demand and weakens prices to create a potential double-edged sword for carry traders.

The banks, of course, realize this and hedge their gold sales by buying gold futures. According to Kevin Schweitzer, senior vice president with Hudson Securities, a firm that makes markets in gold stocks, the hedge is not perfect. If central banks call in their gold loans, the banks cannot wait for contract expiration to take delivery on the gold they purchased via their futures contracts. They have to pay back their loans right away and if gold prices are stable, there is no problem for the banks going into the physical market to buy back their gold.

However, if gold starts to rise quickly, the added demand from the banks to buy gold can exacerbate the rally causing what amounts to a mad dash for the metal. The market will respond with steeply higher prices, and Schweitzer sees this pushing gold to $850 by the end of the year.

All of this is fundamental in nature so let's examine the technicals a bit more. As the chart shows, gold peaked in May 2006 in what some labeled a speculative bubble. However, rather than falling quickly as burst bubbles portend, the market moved sideways for the next 15 months (see Chart 1).

Source: WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118954417476624138.html?mod=rss_barrons_markets - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118954417476624138.html?mod=rss_barrons_markets


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 09/Nov/2007 at 2:39am
Gold is 825+. Carry trade started when gold was <300. Gold Carry trade size is supposed to be Tons.  Global Annual production is 2500-3000 Tons. Even if we don't consider short squeeze effect(which could be huge considering size of short position) total loss could be $250B+.
 
Another LEVEL III Asset(or liability?).
 
Gold Carry Trade is not UFO. It is real. Read Greenspan's statement at testimony to congress. Only size is not confirmed but is there any carrytrade small in size?


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Nov/2007 at 9:31am
manish you mentioned about some bank being short on Gold through the carry trade sometime sback. can you indicate that situation again.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kaushalchawla
Date Posted: 10/Nov/2007 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Gold is 825+. Carry trade started when gold was <300. Gold Carry trade size is supposed to be Tons.  Global Annual production is 2500-3000 Tons. Even if we don't consider short squeeze effect(which could be huge considering size of short position) total loss could be $250B+.
 
Another LEVEL III Asset(or liability?).
 
Gold Carry Trade is not UFO. It is real. Read Greenspan's statement at testimony to congress. Only size is not confirmed but is there any carrytrade small in size?
 
I am not very knowledgeable on this aread. But my question is: those who rented/leased gold from central bankers @ 250 or so dollars would have kept quite till 825$?? Thats a big big loss. Wouldnt they have squared their position much earlier?


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Warm Regards,
Kaushal


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 21/Nov/2007 at 6:46pm

Paul Mylchreest: Gold War: "Gold is money and nothing else" – Gold is sending a warning

Conflict between governments and gold

Its role as the ultimate form of money puts gold into a situation of permanent competition with unbacked (by precious metals) fiat currencies created by governments and, consequently, with the governments themselves.

This conflict is still unappreciated by many, although not those from the 'Austrian School' of economics, like Ludwig von Mises:

"The struggle against gold, which is one of the main concerns of all contemporary governments, must not be looked upon as an isolated phenomenon. It is but one item in the gigantic process of destruction which is the mark of our time."

The lesson of history is that paper currencies that are not backed by precious metals ultimately tend towards their intrinsic value, i.e. zero.

It cannot be refuted that at times of maximum economic or financial crisis for the US economy during the last century, or when the dollar's status as the reserve currency has come under severe stress, the US Government (aided by other governments in some cases) has tried to manipulate the gold price. The three most obvious examples are:

> The Great Depression of the early 1930s: President Roosevelt confiscated gold from US citizens who were hoarding it ahead of an anticipated devaluation of the US dollar (US citizens could not legally own gold again until the beginning of 1975).

> The collapse of the London Gold Pool and the Bretton Woods system in the late 1960s/early 1970s. The Federal Reserve and eight European central banks pooled their gold resources in an unsuccessful attempt to suppress the price of gold
and preserve the dollar's value at US$35/oz versus gold.

> The runaway inflation of the late-1970s. The US Treasury and the IMF sold approximately 1,200 tonnes of gold during 1976-80; nevertheless the gold price reached its all-time high of US$850/oz in January 1980. In April 1978, the IMF took
further action to demonetize gold. In the Second Amendment of the Articles of Agreement of the IMF, gold was removed as a means of inter-nation settlement.

In a 1981 American Institute for Economic Research essay, the economist, Ernest P Welker stated:

"Beginning in 1975, the United States, aided by the principal members of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), began a 'bear raid' on the gold markets of the world. It was a raid of unprecedented proportions and duration. The underlying purpose of this raid was to convince the citizens of the major nations that paper currencies are better than gold. Success of the operation would ensure that inflating by excessive issues of paper currencies could continue indefinitely."



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!



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