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The US economy - What is wrong with it?

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Economy, Markets and commodities
Forum Name: Global Economies - Where are they going?
Forum Discription: If India is shining.Is the Sun setting in the west?Discuss how India could be affected if global economies crack. In case that happens is there a safe haven for Indian Investors?
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42
Printed Date: 07/May/2025 at 1:34pm


Topic: The US economy - What is wrong with it?
Posted By: basant
Subject: The US economy - What is wrong with it?
Date Posted: 23/Jul/2006 at 10:51am

Catherine Clark who resided at San Francisco was born in debt, lived in debt and died in debt. When she was born as a beautiful young daughter to a middle aged couple her father paid the hospital bills through credit card. All throughout her life Catherine used the Master card and never reached for her cash and when she passed away her children paid her funeral bills through plastic money . The United States of America with a GDP in excess of US $ 11 trillion is facing its worst ever test in recent memory. Debt levels are rising for the millions of Catherine Clarks across the nation and while the President tries to block outsourcing contracts to India the Fed Reserve prints more and more dollars to keep the ball rolling.

The US faces a Current account deficit of more then US $ I billion per day, the debt to GDP ratio at about 300% is the highest ever, even during the times of the great 1929 depression this ratio was around 260%, the budget surplus that the US used to generate in the early 1990's have given way to budget deficits now forecast at $520 billion this fiscal year at over 4.5% of GDP, spreads between 30 year T- bills and corporate bonds have been on a rise clearly indicating the falling quality of corporate paper. The United States appears set for one of the most eventful eras in the post globalization period.

Savings as most of the economists say is a personal virtue but a macro curse. A larger amount of consumption creates demand for goods and services, which further generates employment and output. The Americans with their larger then normal propensity to consume have been too far dependent upon the debt form of financing.. The personal savings rate have plummeted to less then 1.3%  The need of the hour is for Americans to reduce their debt levels and increase their level of savings

The easy money policy of the Federal Reserve leading to forceful reduction in interest rates is encouraging households to borrow further rather then repay off old debts. Unemployment seems to be rising forcing the Govt. to substitute employment for productivity, Public protests call for banning out sourcing. Some one rightly remarked even the most intelligent people in the world would not complain being inefficient when it comes to keeping up their jobs. Adam Smith's famous division for labor concept and The Ricardian theory of Comparative costs do not apply to Corporate America. The economic superpower faces deflation with rising debt levels - if only macroeconomics were a bit easier.

Warren Buffet the saga of Omaha and one of the most vocal proponents of long term investing in a report to the shareholders of Berkshire Hathway opined "In recent years our country's trade deficit has been force-feeding huge amounts of claims on, and ownership in, America to the rest of the world. For a time, foreign appetite for these assets readily absorbed the supply. Late in 2002, however, the world started choking on this diet, and the dollar's value began to slide against major currencies. Even so, prevailing exchange rates will not lead to a material letup in our trade deficit. So whether foreign investors like it or not, they will continue to be flooded with dollars. The consequences of this are anybody's guess. They could, however, be troublesome - and reach, in fact, well beyond currency markets".

Since a majority of these investments would flow into the top 100 stocks the sensex would rise by around 12% on the simple demand supply analysis. After all more money chasing few stocks would make stocks dearer. Even if the FII were to hold money in rupee terms through the debt route they would make around 7.5% (5% as interest and 2.5% for the dollar depreciation). The message is ringing loud and clear FII's stay back from India at your own peril.

The US Government retirement accounts presently financing federal expenditure spending will evaporate over the next few years as the ageing population of the US spends more on health care and medicines. Health care costs are set to spiral upwards as the population is painfully skewed towards the older generation.

The artificial forces that keep the dollar afloat is the amount of Treasury bills that the Asian Economies buy each year to keep the dollar strong. It is estimated that China and Japan could finance the total American borrowing program this year. It suits these countries to keep their currencies weak (this will encourage exports and discourage imports) as a result they are betting on buying promissory notes of an Economy who is repaying old debt through fresh borrowings - for smaller economies they call it a debt trap I hope the US is not falling into a death trap fresh foreign borrowings is keeping US bond yields suppressed and also supplementing the borrowing needs of the US.

The US Stock market Capitalization to GDP ratio exceeds a factor of one. Empirical evidence does not encourage bullishness on this count. The GDP also does not indicate any significant signs of moving up further. The only case for being bullish on US stocks would be to expect a higher Market Capitalization to GDP ratio - if that happens it would make US Stocks more over valued. Any body betting on US stocks is betting on the greater fool theory that is you buy an over valued stock expecting it to get over valued further before a greater fool buys it back from you at a higher price.

Although how much pessimistic I may sound the elephant does not die easily and whenever it catches cold the small animals cry pneumonia only to be terrified by the sneeze that the animal takes. While in School we were told that Economics is a science of assumptions and as long as it represents a tendency it is all right but when it sets to put down an inflexible mathematical formula it falls to the ground.



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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



Replies:
Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Aug/2006 at 8:09pm

A very intresting point of view from an economist at the stern school of business. Compelete analysis can be found on this link.. http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/139867 - http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/139867

The question that is relevent is that will the world decouple from the up comming "US RECESSION". and do u believe in the upcomming recession at all. A great topic up for debate.

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 01/Sep/2006 at 1:47pm
BasantJi,
 
An intresting article by Dr Doom can be found here
 
http://www.whiskeyandgunpowder.com/Archives/20060830.html - http://www.whiskeyandgunpowder.com/Archives/20060830.html


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 13/Sep/2006 at 7:43pm
here is an intresting Fundamental take on the global economy....
Mind you he is a bear since 2003
 
http://www.valuenotes.com/AGoel/ag_markets_09sep06.asp?ArtCd=86059&Cat=&Id - http://www.valuenotes.com/AGoel/ag_markets_09sep06.asp?ArtCd=86059&Cat=&Id =


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 13/Sep/2006 at 8:23pm
I came to an amazing thing about Switzerland... here it is...
 
Every swiss male has a fully loaded machine gun his house. Army is compulsory and when you finish, you take your gun with you for later call ups. Not many countries have both those statistics


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 22/Feb/2007 at 1:29pm

Here is a extremly interesting media headline show for you guys... read the headlines and the dates.

Thanks to http://www.minyanville.com/articles/index.php?a=12177 - Minyanville
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 22/Feb/2007 at 3:03pm
Thanks for those Bubble ji. Just goes to show the expertise of the experts

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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 22/Feb/2007 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

I came to an amazing thing about Switzerland... here it is...
 
Every swiss male has a fully loaded machine gun his house. Army is compulsory and when you finish, you take your gun with you for later call ups. Not many countries have both those statistics
 
 
Finland is another country that is right up there in % in rifles.
something like an average of 3 per person.


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Feb/2007 at 6:59pm
Greenspan, speaking in Tokyo, said the US economy could slip into a recession by the end of this year. The comment was in response to a question whether the us economy could mjove into recession so it was more of an answer than a forecast.
 
Watch it http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=189117755&play=1 - here


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Feb/2007 at 7:13am
Would he have said the same thing had he been the Fed Reserve chairman. He is behaving like our Matt boy (who was pulled up by SEBI). Sochte kuch bolte kuch!

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 26/Feb/2007 at 8:36am
hmmmm..... gora Matt?

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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 26/Feb/2007 at 9:38am
Kahi pe nigahe, kahi pe nishana.

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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 02/Mar/2007 at 7:28pm
Merryll Lynch saying that US Fed will cut 125 Bps in 2007 in five meetings.
 
Fed meets 8 times in a year "Normally" out of which 7 remain in 2007.
 
Next Fed Meet is on 21-March-2007
(Rate cut then would mean "Fed Panicking" IMO)


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 02/Mar/2007 at 7:55pm
generally all central bankers would like to stay ahead of the curve.with alan greenspan saying that there is apossibilty that usa may head for a recession i suppose bernake has is work cut out as what to do.on the other hand if he does cut rates it means pumping more cash into a system that is alreadyawash with cash it could also signal the demise of the us dollar,so would be really interesting to see what bernie finally does

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understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 02/Mar/2007 at 8:06pm
US fed is betweem devil and deep sea. They want to reduce rate for growth and stabilazation of housing. On other hand they need to finance huuuge deficit at time when savings rate is low. Reducing rate would lower dollar and that is inflationary.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 02/Mar/2007 at 8:48pm
Absolutely correct Manish.... The markets look like they will test Ben this time. 
Ben looks like a deer caught in glaring headlights!
 
Also rate cut would result in further unwinding of CHF and Yen Carry which would add to the market panic.
 
Its hard to tell the crowd to go back into a burning building even if you are handing out crisp $100 bills.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 02/Mar/2007 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

Absolutely correct Manish.... The markets look like they will test Ben this time. 
Ben looks like a deer caught in glaring headlights!
 
Also rate cut would result in further unwinding of CHF and Yen Carry which would add to the market panic.
 
Its hard to tell the crowd to go back into a burning building even if you are handing out crisp $100 bills.
 
 
BubbleVision,
Please explain this Yen Carry and CHF for my benefit as I have heard this phrase and I have no clue what it means.
Thanks


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2007 at 7:04pm
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070602.wputin01/BNStory/International/home - Exclusive: Putin threatens to target Europe with missiles - Globe and Mail

In an interview with the Globe and Mail, Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened to target Europe with missiles, including potentially nuclear weapons, in a dramatic escalation of his Cold War-style showdown with the United States.

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: ndzapak
Date Posted: 08/Jun/2007 at 10:20pm
I think the risk to global economites from a US recession is diminishing
bit by bit. An interesing report on that.
 
Source: IndiaInfoline
 

Global Decoupling: A Marathon, Not A Sprint: Merrill Lynch

 India Infoline News Service / Mumbai Jun 08, 2007 19:12 

 

The bank’s economists are more bearish than most on the prospects for the U.S. economy, but are more bullish than consensus about the rest of the world.

 

The global phenomenon of a decoupling between the economies of the U.S. and the rest of the world is becoming more pronounced and is set to last, according to Merrill Lynch’s  mid-year 2007 global economics report, “Global Decoupling: A Marathon, Not A Sprint.”  First presented to investors in a Merrill Lynch report in 2006, the firm’s economists expand on how decoupling is unfolding, with three new calls.  The Merrill Lynch global economics team believes that:

 

First, the global economy will continue to grow in 2007 – with no sign of a significant cyclical slowdown.  The bank’s economists are more bearish than most on the prospects for the U.S. economy, but are more bullish than consensus about the rest of the world. 

 

Second, decoupling is not simply a cyclical trend.  Structural forces, such as a sustained investment spending boom outside the U.S., are driving this global economic force – giving it longevity. 

 

Third, inflation poses the biggest risk to global growth and the threat it poses is higher than the market is currently anticipating. Merrill Lynch forecasts non-U.S. inflation to rise to 3.4% in 2008 from 3.2% in 2007. 

 

Rest of the world takes up the baton

“If anything, our bullish call on global growth last September was not bullish enough,” said Alex Patelis, Head of International Economics at Merrill Lynch. “Looking into the balance of 2007 our view stands intact: this is a year of transition as the U.S. passes the global growth baton to the rest of the world.”

 

Consumer is key for U.S.

Merrill Lynch’s view on decoupling reflects how the U.S. economy has shifted to a lower gear.  David Rosenberg, Chief North America Economist, believes that the power of the consumer is key to the U.S. economy and he highlights signs that consumer spending could weaken.  For example, higher oil and gas prices and higher grocery prices could trim discretionary spending.

 

Asia shows resilience

The Asian economy is displaying resilience. GDP in the region is growing strongly despite a slowdown in exports to the U.S., thanks in part to higher exports to Europe and other parts of the world.  Furthermore, Asian domestic demand is gathering momentum.  TJ Bond, Chief Asia Economist, believes that a U.S. slowdown - and even a modest U.S. recession - would have a modest impact on Asian growth.

 

Fiscal policy boosts Europe

Klaus Baader, Chief Europe Economist, says that prospects for the Eurozone and other European economies continue to brighten. He notes that Europe’s trade performance has been ahead of expectations and the region has withstood tighter fiscal policies, and governments will be under decreasing pressure to raise taxes as spending deficits fall.

 

Japan poised for comeback

The Japanese economy is set to make a comeback after six slow months. Consumer demand will recover after the sharp rise in savings rates seen in 2006. Merrill Lynch believes that higher productivity should fuel a rise in corporate profits. Pragmatic monetary and fiscal policies will help the economy.

 

Canada could yet survive U.S. slowdown

Merrill Lynch also believes that Canada may struggle to boom economically in the face of a U.S. slowdown, but that prospects are encouraging after weak growth in 2006. Domestic demand and manufacturing have been driving a pick-up in first half growth.

 

Emerging Markets remain well positioned

EMEA (Emerging Europe, Middle-East and Africa) appears well-positioned to weather a U.S. slowdown, thanks in part to continued high commodity prices and strong demand for exports.  Latin America is on track to post a fifth straight year of solid economic growth and is grappling with how to ensure that positive effects of the favorable global environment reach the poorest members of its population.

 

Commodity super-cycle lives on

Dry bulk shipping prices point to the health of commodities markets, and it is clear that demand for bulk commodities such as iron ore, coal and grains is outpacing growth in shipping capacity.  A tripling in dry bulk shipping prices since the start of 2006 suggests that the commodity super-cycle remains in place. 

 

US dollar faces further weakening

Merrill Lynch expects the dollar to weaken modestly in the second half of 2007 against the euro and the yen.  Investment levels in U.S. assets could fall with the global savings rate at historical highs and savers looking more towards non-U.S. assets, but central banks will continue to support the dollar.



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the Equitydesk is the best


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 02/Jul/2007 at 10:46am

U.S. CREDIT UPDATE: 2Q07 MARKS FIFTH CONSECUTIVE QUARTERLY GROWTH IN CONSUMER BANKRUPTCIES - NATIONAL BANKRUPTCY RESEARCH CENTER

- The second quarter 2007 filings numbered 200,732, an 11.6% growth over the first quarter of 2007 and a 40.6% growth over the second quarter of 2006

- On an annualized basis, 1 in every 136 households filed bankruptcy in the second quarter of 2007, as opposed to 1 in every 190 households in the second quarter of 2006



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Jul/2007 at 11:52pm
US Senate set to consider key China currency bill
 
WASHINGTON (Thomson Financial) - A key committee in the US Senate is set to consider a bill later today that could lead to new trade sanctions against China because of China's currency policy, although the measure is already under fire from US manufacturers who say it does not go far enough.

The Senate Finance Committee is scheduled to consider a bill that calls for a range of sanctions against China if the yuan is found to be undervalued, including the possibility of higher tariffs imposed on Chinese imports. The bill could also lead to stepped up pressure against China in the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization.

Under current law, the US is only required to hold talks with countries found to be manipulating their currencies, and the Bush administration has never cited any country for manipulating its currency. The last time the US found a country to be manipulating its currency was in 1994, when President Bill Clinton cited China.

The Senate bill is under heavy attack from a range of business groups and several other senators who say it is too weak, and would allow the US government to waive sanctions too easily.

In a separate Senate hearing yesterday, Brian O'Shaughnessy of Revere Copper Products said these waivers are 'fatal flaws' in the bill that will undermine efforts to help US companies.

'As such, the present bill represents a cruel hoax on the American factory worker who is expecting real relief from the impact of the protectionist policies of China,' O'Shaughnessy said.

And 300 New York manufacturers wrote a letter yesterday to the bill's chief proponent, New York Democrat Charles Schumer, arguing for stronger language in the bill.

As a result of these complaints, several senators are expected to offer amendments to the bill in an effort to make it harder for the US government to avoid a finding that China has a misaligned currency, and harder to waive sanctions after such a finding.

But Schumer and Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, a Montana Democrat, are expected to vigorously oppose any amendments.

Critics charge that Schumer's opposition to stronger language shows he is more interested in a public show of pressure on China rather than passing legislation that would lead to higher tariffs on Chinese imports. Committee approval of the bill could make it easier for Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson to extract promises from the Chinese government when he meets with Chinese President Hu Jintao in Beijing next week.

Last year, Schumer warned that a bill imposing a 27.5 pct tariff against Chinese imports would be voted on unless China agreed to immediately revalue the yuan. China made no such move, but Schumer withdrew his bill from consideration nonetheless.



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Ajaya
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2007 at 2:14am
Higher risk of recession in US by 2008: MS
Source: Moneycontrol.com

Addressing the US sub prime issue, http://www.moneycontrol.com/mccode/news/searchresult.php?search_str=Stephen%20Roach&datesel=2 - Stephen Roach , Chairman-Asia of http://www.moneycontrol.com/mccode/news/searchresult.php?search_str=Morgan%20Stanley%20&datesel=2 - Morgan Stanley said that the US consumption share of GDP is on its way down.

< ="http://202.87.40.52/promos/sponsor_news.js">

Roach added that http://www.moneycontrol.com/mccode/news/searchresult.php?search_str=recession&datesel=2 - recession will hit US by 2008. According to him, Asia will see the impact of US recession despite strong fundamentals. Roach does not believe in complete decoupling of Asian markets from the US and observed that global problems will remain over the next couple of years.

Excerpts of Stephen Roach’s speech:

 

On the perils of globalisation:

 

I want to make three points with you today in my discussion. Number one, I think the http://www.moneycontrol.com/mccode/news/article/news_article.php?autono=311400&special=today# - - economy is going to be very challenging over the next couple of years. Unlike the situation of 10 years ago, when global problems were made in Asia, I think global problems will be made in America. I think the risk of a recession in the US in 2008, is high and rising. You don’t want to put any real precision on probabilities like that, but I would say it’s a number. Now that has unfortunately moved above that 50% threshold for 2008.

 

Second point I want to make is, if the US goes into recession, you are going to feel it in Asia, you are going to feel it in India. The fundamentals for Asia are terrific. But Asia as a region, and developing Asia in particular, remains very much an export led region, maybe a little bit less than that for India than typical developing Asian economies. But certainly the case in Eastern Asia and China are on the leading edge of that. So, if the US sneezes, Asia will catch a cold. I don’t believe in global decoupling and I will tell you why as we go through this discussion.

 

The third point I want to conclude with is just a warning here that Asia has been the laboratory, the experiment, the greatest success story of globalisation.

 

Globalisation, in contrast to what you may hear when you pick up books like ‘The World Is Flat’ which sounds like everything is just going perfectly, the globalisation debate has a lot of jagged edges to it. There are some very serious concerns that I have that are building in the developed countries in particular, those like the US and increasing capitals of Europe, that are blaming globalisation for a lot of the problems that have been bearing down on their workers. So, the politics of a backlash against globalisation are very important and something you need to think about in assessing your own role in this grand experiment.

 

The final word of introduction is, when they came up with this title for “Canary in a coalmine”, this is sort of an idiomatic colloquialism from early 19th Century coalmining in the US. A very hazardous occupation.

 

One of the major hazards back then was, as miners were going to the mines, unexpectedly they would hit a bane of a gas pocket, it would release a very lethal carbon monoxide or methane gas that would kill the miners almost instantly.

 

On decoupling:

 

I think the thing that worries me the most, and this is where I would really underscore the point for you in India, is that equity markets in this region, including your own, are discounting this optimistic, rosy scenario called decoupling. There is the strong belief that because the US has slowed so far, and Asia hasn’t, that any further slowdown will leave Asia unscathed. Think about it for a second.

 

The slowing that’s occurred in the US right now has been in homebuilding activity. It’s America’s least global sector. You stop building a house in America, there’s almost no impact on Asian exports to the US.

 

The slowing that will be coming over the next year will be in the consumer demand sector, which is America’s most global sector. So, we are going to see the US slowdown go from a domestically driven to a globally driven slowdown.

 

I am sorry, as bullish as I am about Asia, Asia will not be an oasis of prosperity in a softer global demand climate. To the extent that emerging market http://www.moneycontrol.com/mccode/news/article/news_article.php?autono=311400&special=today# - - market quite hard.



Posted By: Ajaya
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2007 at 3:15am

What's Ahead for Financial Markets? Perspectives from Jeremy Siegel and Jacob Wallenberg

Published: October 03, 2007 in Knowledge@Wharton


    http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/audio/KW_Siegel_Wallenberg.mp3"> http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1819&CFID=43367852&CFTOKEN=20125647&jsessionid=a83084908d772d2e6619#">

After a terrible August, when the U.S. stock market appeared to be headed for the pits, October 1 saw a massive rally that sent the Dow Jones Industrial Average soaring above 14,000. Markets seemed to be celebrating the effects of the Fed's interest rate cut, and media reports said money was pouring back into equities. The following day, however, stocks began to fall again -- because the National Association of Realtors reported a sharp drop in home sales. In short, Wall Street still seems to be sending out mixed signals.

What will be the long-term effects of the Fed's decision to cut interest rates? Will the U.S. economy move past the sub-prime mortgage mess, or will it sink deeper into a morass and perhaps into a recession? What will be the effect of these developments on the European market? Knowledge@Wharton spoke with Wharton finance professor http://www.jeremysiegel.com/ - Jeremy Siegel and Jacob Wallenberg, chairman of the board of Investor AB, which is listed on the Stockholm Stock Exchange and is the largest industrial holding company in the Nordic region. In addition, he is vice chairman of Sweden-based SEB. An edited version of the transcript follows.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jeremy Siegel, you have been a consistent bull during this credit upheaval. Does the recent record price of the Dow vindicate your position?

Siegel: I'll tell you, I was taking a lot of heat from Knowledge@Wharton readers. They were emailing me and saying, "Jeremy, you don't look like you're very right here." My position was that yes, housing is in a mess. But still the credit structure outside of housing was strong and the economy wouldn't go into a recession. What we saw was that contagion and uncertainty just spread like wild fire and the Fed stepped in appropriately, in my opinion. With the Fed's backing, we are getting a lot of confidence back. The lower interest rates are a good reason the market is rising again.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jacob Wallenberg, we just heard about all of the problems in the U.S. market. Has the U.S. subprime crisis and the credit crunch had an impact in Europe as well?

Wallenberg: It has. Anyone who follows European news would see [mortgage lender] Northern Rock as a glaring example of this entire situation because there we had the run on the bank, which is about the last thing that any of us would [have predicted]. It just shows how fragile the system is when we have a situation of this nature. So, of course Europe is very much aware of what's going on and Europe is paying a price.

We have seen a few banks in Europe take significant hits. It's been in the news the last few days. It's not only Citibank that has problems. UBS took a significant write-down; so did Credit Suisse and I think that you are going to see a few other players. We have seen at least one German bank being protected by the system. I think that we are going to see more fall-outs as the third quarter results are being announced.

But what is interesting is that Europeans are less aware of the nervous situation in this country that has prevailed over the last two months. The reporting in the European media, with the glaring exception of The Financial Times, has been more moderate. If I call and speak to my American colleagues in France, those haven't been very happy calls over the last few months.

Siegel: What is also quite interesting about Northern Rock is that Great Britain does not have the type of deposit insurance that we have in the United States. It is much more skeletal, with just a few thousand pounds insured and then a fraction of anything above that. They are now debating whether they should have the FDIC [Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation] insurance that has actually been present in the United States for 70 years.

But what happened in the UK was that the Bank of England had to come around. It was one of the few banks that didn't do much and now it had to say, basically, "We're backing the deposits." That has put a lot of heat on Mervyn King, the head of the Bank of England. There are certainly a lot of ramifications in Europe and the United States. I don't see Asia involved yet, but there are probably some touches there.

Wallenberg: There will be investors that have [commercial] paper that will be affected one way or another, but maybe less so than the others.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jeremy, how can you explain yesterday's stock market?

Citibank and UBS reported huge write-downs and yet their stocks rose.

Siegel: That was sort of puzzling. I think there are a number of things and it actually didn't surprise me. First of all, they said, "These are our losses and this is our extent." They also said -- and this was important -- that "we expect a much more normal environment in the fourth quarter." That was very encouraging for the market.

Third, and this is something that I've been saying in some of my commentary in the last few weeks, is that we see loan demand coming back to the banks..... So many borrowers went directly to the market. The market now is way too expensive and what [these borrowers] are doing is coming back to the banks. The banks eventually can get fees on those loans because they have direct access to the Fedand the discount window.

Really, in the long run, this might be good for the banking system. I think that maybe several others are thinking, "Boy, they're cheap now." You pick up banks at 10 times earnings, 11 times earnings -- people are thinking that this might be an opportunity for the future.

Knowledge@Wharton: Does that mean that the worst of the subprime mess and the credit crunch is behind us? Or, do you think that there is still some risk?

Siegel: I think that the worst is over. Everyone is going to say that "There is going to be a big bomb and there is going to be a hedge fund that is going to go under" [and so forth]. Well, we haven't heard anything recently and that's another thing that is moving up the market. No news is good news. That's actually been the mantra of the market the last two months. No news is good news. We haven't heard any real big bombs and they are taking their losses with the write-downs.... We are slowly returning to normal here.

Wallenberg: I tend to agree with that -- especially the part, "No news is good news." That is hugely important because at the end of the day, this is all a matter of psychology. The consumer sits on his hands because he or she is concerned -- and that seems to slowly be going away. So, let's just hope and keep our fingers crossed.

But one question that goes through my mind, as a banker, is of course the underlying economic consequences of this -- and a lot of other things. Are we in the beginning of a real downturn in this market or aren't we? And on that particular point, I don't think we have seen the answer yet.

Siegel: I have been saying that there is a 25% probability of a recession. Most others have gone up to around 30%, 35%, 40% and some to 50%. I'm on the low side; I'm on the optimistic side. But I think that we're going to see 1% to 2% real growth, which is above the zero mark.

Housing is still bad and will remain bad. But we've gone through a year of bad housing and still managed to stay above water. I think that we can continue to do that in 2008 -- and then look better towards mid-year and further beyond.

Knowledge@Wharton: How do you think the Fed under Ben Bernanke is handling monetary policy? If the troubles in the real estate and mortgage markets continue, do you think there will be more interest rate cuts?

Siegel: I think that he has done extraordinarily well. The first move he made on August 17th was lowering the discount rate for borrowing. The reason he didn't move the Fed funds rate then was because he didn't have all of the votes he needed on the Federal Open Market Committee. It was due to that. But the governors themselves decided the discount rate, so it was sort of unprecedented.

And then, to get a unanimous vote for a 50 basis point cut -- I thought this showed that his powers of persuasion are excellent. He's a consensus builder par excellence. And, let me tell you, that going into that meeting on September 18th, he did not have unanimity among the bank presidents. There were probably three or four and he was able to convince them to go for the 50 basis point cut. I think that it's right.

There are risks and I'd like to ask Jacob about that. We've seen what's happened to the dollar. I think that it's a little overdone in the markets. A plunging dollar is not good. It does bring about inflation. That's the only downside that one sees so far on that. But, it's too short term to see how this really plays out. I don't know what your opinion is on that.

Wallenberg: Well, in all fairness, I am not an economist. I'm just trying to practice these things in day-to-day life. Of course inflation has to be the outstanding question at the end of the equation. But you know that is the reality; you don't have the answers to everything, every day. You just have to wait and see how this pans out.

Siegel: The news coming in on inflation is good. And we don't like to see oil over $80, although it's interesting because the actual wholesale price of gasoline has stayed low and natural gas has also stayed very low. So, those big items that feed into the CPI directly have not been up as much as oil and we're getting very moderate readings.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jacob, as a European banker, is inflation your biggest concern, or are there other issues that keep you up at night?

Wallenberg: Lately, over the last six months, inflation has been an issue. We have seen increasing interest rates but then we saw the whole subprime question coming in and a reversal on the interest rate side. If you ask anyone right now, it's the underlying risk -- a consequence of the subprime situation -- that is the core issue. I think that bankers are less comfortable with the situation.

We're very happy that UBS and the others came through and put numbers on what the expected losses were. Certainly, we can start to box the situation. So yes, we're slightly less concerned but it's not over yet. We're going to wait and watch it for a little while.

But, generally speaking, the European economy is not stuck in a housing price situation, with the exception of parts of England. So the underlying economic development is on a slightly more positive note. And we have seen that Europe has done quite well for some time, with the exception of Germany.

Overall, Europe is doing slightly better than the United States right now, which I think no one expected. It is nice when we can beat the almighty United States at their own game -- economic growth.

Siegel: Germany has not had that much housing inflation. But I hear that there have been some problems in Spain among home builders.

Wallenberg: You will find some pockets of that, of course.

Siegel: There was a lot of speculation that really started earlier in the summer. There are some pockets and it seems cities like London and New York City keep on defying gravity by moving higher. They are fueled by those people who have a lot of money and are still bidding freely for real estate.

Wallenberg: We have more Russians in London than you have in New York.

Siegel: It used to be the Arabs coming to London. Now are the Russians coming to London?

Wallenberg: Absolutely. It's an important part of the equation.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jeremy has said that he believes there is a 25% chance of a recession. I wonder if you also share that view, Jacob. And if not, what do you think would be the consequences for both the U.S. and for Europe in the world economy?

Wallenberg: I'm not going to put a probability on it, but I have a concern. Despite all the nice warm words, I think that there is a significant risk. And I think that, at the end of the day, if nothing else, for every day that we are not in a recession -- we are at least one day closer to a recession.

We have had a prolonged period of high economic growth and I look at the way that U.S. consumers have been behaving. I look at what Wal-Mart communicates and so on. It is obvious that the U.S. consumer is cautious -- more cautious than before. That might very well spill over into a recession or a recession-like economic environment. The question then is: Will that spill over into the rest of the world or not? And what do China and India mean in this overall equation?

Reasonably, there are more cushions today than what we would have had 20 years ago. Reasonably, Europe is stronger today, more on its own than ever before. So, maybe it's not going to spill over entirely. But on the other hand, this might be a locomotive of the United States economy. Despite the fact that I am not an economist, I cannot see the United States going into a recession without that having some significant consequences in the rest of the world. I really can't see that happening.

Now, when I say significant, I mean that other parts of the world could go into a recession as well. On the other hand, that's part of the game. It's even in the bible --seven good years and seven bad years. There is nothing peculiar about it. It's human psychology. 

Siegel: We've had 10 good years actually, between 1990 and 2000.

Wallenberg: I'm sure we could find other exceptions. But it's more the principle. You have to learn to live with these things -- and that's the voice from reality.

Siegel: I think that we are more in a mid-cycle slow down, very much like 1995. After the Fed raised rates dramatically in 1994, we had a big slow down, but no recession in 1995. And, here we are also suffering with the fall-out from a rise in rates and excesses that come when the rates are low for a long time.

I think that it is going to be the same -- that there's going to be a slow down and then a pick up. At least, that is what I hope because you know we had some very good years in 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999 and another four years of expansion, before it got also overblown by technology and all sorts of other things that happened later on.

Knowledge@Wharton: What would be the appropriate strategy for investors these days?

Siegel: I always say, "Keep your eyes towards the long run. Don't panic." This was so evident in what we saw this summer -- all the gloom and doom, [people saying] "this is the end" and all that. A lot of people became safer and are now sitting on the sidelines and the market is back where it was. They are sort of regretting it. If you stay in there for the long run and allocate properly, you will see the dips as times to buy. I'm sure that you're not going to hit the bottom.

Right now, for instance, I'm very optimistic going forward. People are talking about this as just a very short-term rally over here. I think that if there are no big surprises [and that's what I believe will be the case] and risk normalizes going forward, that earnings are very good. Actually, there was a very interesting statistic that I read today. It is that we have only had half as many warnings for third quarter earnings -- which are going to start being reported in earnest, beginning next week -- at this point this year, as opposed to last year. 

That's a good sign. If the economy was really tanking, you would get a lot of warnings. This is because if you want to know the truth, CEOs now know pretty much what it is. If it's way off, then they usually have to let that information out. So far, that has not been a particularly high number and I think that this is also encouraging buyers. In fact, expectations may have been set a little too low.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jacob, do you agree?

Wallenberg: Let's put it this way, slightly different. I very much echo the view that if you have capital you can deploy long-term -- this is one of the great challenges that we have today -- that most fund investors, fund managers and so on, have to move very swiftly. They are rarely willing to sit it out for a longer time. This is for the simple reason that they are evaluated on a monthly, or even more frequent, basis. So you don't have the stamina because you are going to lose out vis-a-vis the competition. I think that that is one of the great weaknesses of the system as we know it today.

It is that people are so caught up in the short term -- and I'm now talking about the way we invest capital, not the way we run our companies. That will, in itself, be a challenge for any fund manager today. This is because it is going to be a bumpy road at the minimum. You have to have the staying power so that you can hang in there for a longer while. Then you can do fine. 



Posted By: Ajaya
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2007 at 3:21am

What Does It Take to Compete in a Flat World?

Published: October 31, 2007 in Knowledge@Wharton


    http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/audio/KW_FlatWorldPROG.mp3"> http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1836&CFID=43367852&CFTOKEN=20125647&jsessionid=a83084908d772d2e6619#">

When Thomas Friedman wrote his popular book, The World Is Flat, one of its central arguments was that geography might soon become history. The proliferation of information technology and telecommunications networks has integrated the world in ways that were unimaginable in the past -- and this has transformed how companies produce and distribute products and services. One result of this transformation is the rise of networks of companies that are bound together through IT and logistics. How can firms strive for and gain competitive advantage in such an environment? Victor and William Fung, group chairman and managing director of Hong Kong-based Li & Fung, and http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/people/faculty.cfm?id=19 - Yoram (Jerry) Wind , a professor of marketing at Wharton, deal with this issue in their new book, Competing in a Flat World: Building Enterprises for a Borderless World. They recently spoke with Knowledge@Wharton.

An edited transcript follows:

A Note to Readers:

Knowledge@Wharton and Wharton School Publishing are pleased to announce a global competition for the best strategies for competing in a flat world. Two prizes will be awarded, one for the best strategies that work and one for the best insights from failures.

For information about the competition, click http://www.competinginaflatworld.net/ - here or go to http://www.competinginaflatworld.net/ - www.competinginaflatworld.net

Knowledge@Wharton: Your book, Competing in a Flat World, describes Li & Fung as "a flat business for a flat world" and also argues that you have evolved into a "network orchestrater." What does that mean and what implications does that have for your customers?

Victor Fung: Maybe the way to explain this is to start off by describing the fact that the way manufacturing is done today -- versus, let's say, even as recently as 10 years ago -- has fundamentally changed. There has been a major transformation over the last 20 years, culminating in the recent period, because of the presence and the use of enablers like IT and logistics.

Whereas manufacturing used to be done in one factory, under one roof and in one country, today the manufacturing process is being dispersed and being produced in stages, in many factories, sometimes over many countries. So when you have a particular order -- let's say of 100,000 shirts -- to manufacture, you may in fact do different stages of the production process in different factories and in different countries. Then you put everything together to make the final product using IT and logistics.

As a result of this change, when we make any product, we have to orchestrate a network of processes and suppliers in different parts of the world. It is very important for us to work very closely with this network; we don't control the entire network because they are all independent contractors. Therefore, when we talk about "orchestrating" that network, it means we have to make sure that all the pieces are synchronized and that the production comes out with a high quality -- and also with a very fast turnaround time. That would allow us to be very efficient in the production process.

Knowledge@Wharton: William, would you like to add anything to that explanation?

William Fung: Well, as Tom Friedman says in his book, the world is getting flatter in the sense that it is now easier to communicate and for parts and materials to go from one country to another for processing. Our ability to use the best factories, at the best locations, to manufacture any order, is becoming a reality.

Instead of the factory being located close to the market where its goods are consumed, production of a lot of labor-intensive goods can now take place in countries where labor is plentiful rather than in countries where these goods are consumed. That accounts for the necessity of a business like Li & Fung -- to be able to operate without borders in a flat world.

We have organized the business so that we have a very flat organization to cope with the need to respond quickly to the needs of our customers and without a hierarchical structure. That's the flat business aspect of the way we're organized to operate in this flat world.

Knowledge@Wharton: Li & Fung has a business history of more than 100 years; you started out in 1906 during the Qing Dynasty. How did you evolve into a network orchestrater?

Victor Fung: If I could take a stab at that question...a lot of the examples and the experiences that we cited in the book were because of the pressures of customer and consumer demands, rather than just some smart people saying that this is the way that we should be organizing the business. The business was organized in a way that responded to the needs of the market.

The response to these trends of the needs of the market started way back...I would say after the Second World War. This was when the prosperity in the developed markets, like America and Europe, led to a situation where a lot of the young people were unwilling to take up blue-collar jobs in labor-intensive industries to make the products that were being consumed in those markets.

This rationalization of manufacturing of labor-intensive goods around the world started in the 1960s and 1970s. Originally Hong Kong was one of those places where our whole economy, after 1949, became dependent on manufacturing for export and not for home consumption. This ability to manufacture in a different location from where you consume it started to spread from Hong Kong to places like the Asian Tigers [Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea] and eventually to Southeast Asia. This rationalization of manufacturing led to a situation where we needed to create the kinds of supply chains that oversaw the manufacturing of these labor intensive goods and eventually to bring them back to the markets of America and Western Europe, where they were consumed.

We were reacting to this economic situation -- the ability to manufacture at less cost in countries where labor is plentiful and then to bring goods back to the countries where they are finally consumed. As a result, we had to organize the company in a way that we could control these more complex global supply chains.

William Fung: Today we are responding to a very important consumer trend. There has been a tremendous fragmentation of consumer demand. Instead of serving one huge market that is basically uniform in demand, you are seeing pockets of niche markets. That is becoming more and more evident.

As we see these niche markets develop, there is a need to come up with increasingly different products. At the same time, forecasting demand becomes much more difficult. This is because if you break up a large market into a fragmented number of smaller markets, the amount of wiggling around in each of the markets becomes more severe.

Therefore, in order to buy more accurately the right product at the right time -- and to deliver it at the right time to satisfy the demand -- you need to cut down the re-order cycle. We talk a lot today about "fast-response manufacturing." This idea of dispersed manufacturing, that I described earlier, allows us to use triple sourcing and double sourcing at different stages. This will give us a very fast turnaround time and the ability to shrink that turnaround time. As a result, we can delay the ordering as much as possible to satisfy the market demand as long as we can. In effect, it allows us to buy more accurately.

The reason this is all possible, of course, is because in the last 10 years there has been a tremendous development of information technology, the Internet and also what I would call modern logistics. With those two enablers we are able now to carry this model of dispersed manufacturing.

We are taking advantage of all of the factors that are described in our book Competing in a Flat World to satisfy this consumer trend towards more and more specialized market niches and different categories of products to satisfy different groups of consumers that we see today. I can see that this trend is actually just going to continue further and further as we go forward.

Knowledge@Wharton: Jerry, from your perspective how does the Li & Fung model of network orchestration compare with the models of other companies that are trying to deal with the same phenomenon of doing business in a borderless world?

Wind: We have to distinguish here between two situations. There is the immediate parallel -- other manufacturing companies today are concerned with supply chains. Every company today is struggling with how to come up with the best supply chain, and there are different models. Toyota, for example, has a dramatically different model with much closer links to their suppliers. This is different than the situation with Li & Fung, where they have close to 9,000 suppliers around the world, in many countries and they have designed a custom supply chain from this network.

The challenge and the strength of the Li & Fung model is selecting and creating this network of 9,000 or so suppliers -- and then for each order to customize a custom supply chain that is the best in delivering the right product, at the right price, at the right time, based on the right specifications of the consumers. Obviously when you're dealing with the supply chain area, the lessons from Li & Fung are tremendous. This is terms of how to do it more effectively and how to create the best possible offering for each one of their retailers and therefore meet the needs of the customers, as both Victor and William articulated before.

But the network is not limited to manufacturing supply chains. We see networks all over, in a sense. In every aspect of life today, we are encountering networks and there is no company today that can survive as an island, as a company by itself. That's why there are the companies that deal with networks of partners and others.

At the other extreme, consider Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia -- which has been receiving a lot of attention. Wikipedia can be viewed as a network of participants; but there too it's not that it's totally organic and there is no governance and direction -- there is an orchestrater. There is a governing body and there are rules. So even the totally open Wikipedia follows some type of network orchestration guidelines that specify that you cannot alter certain entries or certain rules implied and the like.

Another example that people are familiar with is eBay. The company provides the platform and in a sense is orchestrating buyers and the sellers using its technology. The lessons from the network orchestration that Victor and William have created at Li & Fung are applicable to a wide range of businesses and not only on the manufacturing side.

Even those who are not involved directly in business may find it interesting to understand how value is created into today's environment - to meet the changing needs of customers - in this changing flat world.

Knowledge@Wharton: What are the major challenges involved in network orchestration and how do you tackle them?

William Fung: The major challenge we faced is the fact that the needs of the market are changing very rapidly. The need for flexibility is the reason why we went into a network of suppliers instead of a single monolithic, sort of hardwired, vertically integrated manufacturer in the first place. The need to keep providing all of the options needed by the market is obviously always a challenge.

Now couple that with the changing economics of the manufacturing in different parts of the world, and you will see that the network itself - it's a moveable feast. It is not something where you can say, "I've built now, and this network will last me for a long time." It doesn't work that way - it keeps evolving. Our challenge is constantly finding the right countries, the right factories within those countries, to provide the economics that's needed and sometimes the speed to market or the efficiencies needed by the market.

So one of the major challenges of this network creation is that it is ever-changing and we always have to be updating and renewing it. A lot of the products we are involved with are labor-intensive types of products to manufacture. And with labor intensive industries, it's almost like the first rung of the industrialization ladder for developing countries that are changing from an agricultural to an industrial economy.

Therefore our challenge has been to keep exploring new frontiers, new countries to do our manufacturing in that provide a better economic or other solution. It's not purely economic; it could also be sometimes that these countries have the raw materials that are needed for any particular product...wood for furniture, cotton or silk for our garments, or something like that. It's always an evolving situation and we constantly have to be on top of it.

Victor Fung: One of the main things you should know is that once you embark on a dispersed manufacturing model, where different parts of a manufacturing process can be done in different factories and in different countries, for a country to be participating in a global economy it no longer has to have vertical integration of the whole industry. In other words, you don't need to go from yarn to weaving and then making the garment to be in the garment industry.  If you are just in one segment of it, you can participate in that segment of the total supply chain.

That allows for a number of phenomena. First it allows the opportunity for much larger and wider participation for small and medium sized businesses globally. This, I think, is a huge phenomenon that is happening in the world today with a lot of consequences for economic development and job creation.

The second is, for countries to compete, they no longer have to build an entire vertical before they become competitive. They can actually be in a particular niche in a vertical. And indeed, they may be very specialized in a particular niche and then they can participate in different verticals. So it's an interesting phenomenon that's happening because this model is being implemented so widely now around the world.

William Fung: If I could add to that, with another example, with an industry that we're not actively involved with, like the automobile industry. Auto parts are now produced in different parts of the world. If you look at something like, for example, the small electric motors that power windows in a car in let's say Germany. These are now made primarily in the Far East, either in Japan or in China. There are so many well known companies that have specialized in these niche markets as Victor has said, of creating these products and trade and have basically become world leaders in that particular part or component. And, I think this is what the network of dispersed manufacturing can do for the industries, rather than having to do everything yourself in a vertical set-up. 

Knowledge@Wharton: What difference does it make if your company is an orchestrater or it's orchestrated by someone else?

Victor Fung: What we are talking about is team work. Whereas before, you might say that in the old model of a hierarchical, vertically integrated company, everything happened within one company, now we are not seeing competition between companies, but between different supply chains. In a sense, every time you see a product competing, it's one supply chain against another supply chain, with a number of players involved.

So once you have a team, there is always a need for somebody to orchestrate the team. Being a team member [I think] is a very important role. And then, for companies like Li & Fung, where we tend to not be doing any of the actual manufacturing ourselves, but we orchestrate the entire process of allocating the work, sometimes designing the product, getting the orders and so on. We act as an orchestrater -- and that is I think the major difference. On a full supply chain you need both types of players in order to be very strong.

William Fung: Yes, because if you don't have an orchestrater, what tends to happen is that people will focus on their particular sector of that supply chain and they sub-optimize. You need somebody to look at the holistic needs. A very good example would be that if you need the supply chain to respond very quickly to changes in consumer demand, rather than have a sort of buyer-seller relationship that is up and down your chain, you need a cooperative relationship.

This is where you say that "We don't know what the ultimate demand will be, but let's keep open capacity, so that when the orders do come, we can respond very quickly." If every player in the supply chain only minds his own sector, you're not going to have that kind of flexibility built in. And in order to do that, you will need someone to look at the whole chain to see how it is responding, and for them to say, "We need flexibilities built into this part of the chain and that part of the chain." Sometimes it's the raw materials supply; sometimes it's in making certain components and sometimes it's in the final assembly.

That is the difference between an orchestrater and a player, or someone who is part of the chain. You need someone to really manage the whole chain, as Victor has talked about.

Wind: But, if you talk about this from the point of view of management in general, at any firm, then I think that in every firm, the top management should consider what role they can play and if they can start playing the orchestrater role. So, this is going beyond the supply chain and the manufacturing side, with any firm that you are dealing with, whether it's in the financial services area or others - you have to basically look at the entire operation and try to be the orchestrater.

So in a sense, you can argue that every firm makes or boasts of an orchestrater and is also part of an orchestra - part of a network. But, ideally in terms of the changing management scene, we really see it as the role of management -- when they start thinking about division of the firm and the strategy of the firm. They need to start looking at this more broadly and say "How can I orchestrate the network that I am in charge of and what is the best way to do it"? They need to really perform more in the role of an orchestrater.

Knowledge@Wharton: Assume that you are the orchestrater. How should you structure incentives and penalties for the network members? In other words, how do you balance control and empowerment within the supply chain?

Victor Fung: That's a very good question. We have about 9,000 suppliers worldwide, operating in more than 40 countries, so it's a very large global network. And we keep in touch with that network through a very sophisticated IT system. Now, for every individual supplier, or member that we work with, our objective is take anywhere from 30% to 70% of that particular factory's output. You might ask, why 30%? Well, 30% is because we want to be large enough, as a potential buyer, to be meaningful to the factory. But, on the other hand, we don't want to take much more than 70%. This is mainly because we want that factory to be able to work with other people outside of the network, in order to get new ideas, new techniques, and so on - so that the network is constantly being renewed. 

You can see that within the network itself, we would then have really, what I would call a loosely orchestrated network - in which people are not participating 100% of the time in the network - they could be participating outside. And some people go in and out of the network. I'd like to describe the state of that network first.

Now, in terms of structuring the incentives, there are two major ones. The most important, is that being part of the network, we would constantly be feeding ideas, feeding orders, feeding new product development trends and so on, to the members of the network. And, we expect the network members to also contribute because they have exposure to people outside of the network.

The second, very important aspect is that Li & Fung has a whole spectrum of customers, going from buyers of low-cost and value-oriented basic products to very sophisticated luxury products. For any particular manufacturer, when they are operating at a certain level... we don't keep going back to the manufacturer every year and saying "We want you to keep producing the same thing, but at a lower cost every year." Instead, we try, over time, to migrate that particular member of the network up the value chain -- as we can keep increasing the number of sophisticated customers and products for that particular factory to work on.

One of the big incentives is this idea of being able to learn from us as an orchestrater, to be able to depend on us for a reasonable amount of the work that the factory does - and most importantly having the ability to use us in the network to upgrade oneself to actually higher and higher value added and more and more sophistication. I think that is very important. That, to me, is the real incentive for a member to stay as an integral member of the network.

Knowledge@Wharton: Is what you were describing what you call the "30-70" rule in your book?  

Victor Fung: That's right. That is the way we conceptualize a fundamental member of the network and that gives you an idea of how the whole network orchestration happens with these 9,000-plus factories, in more than 40 countries around the world, which form a part of our network.

Knowledge@Wharton: How do you decide who gets to be in the network and how long they can stay in the network?

William Fung: That is dictated by the needs of our customers. We have a wide range and a large number of customers, as Victor had pointed out, and different levels of requirements. But generally speaking, I would say that we select our factories very carefully. But even after the selection, it's through a process of working with them on specific orders and specific customers that these companies started to evolve [as members of the network].

Although Victor has said that IT is very important -- and it is -- we also have a lot people in the network who make qualitative decisions about how factories perform and how they are doing. The network itself is manned by 12,000 dedicated people. We don't have anybody who is manufacturing per se. We only have people who are involved in network orchestration.

We have 12,000 people in more than 70 offices, in more than 40 countries, around the world. It is this network of people who are scrutinizing, improving and changing the network of supplies all the time, depending on both the requirements of the market and the performance of the supplies themselves. 

Knowledge@Wharton: What are the principal political and policy implications from the rise of these networks? For example, do you think that there can be regulatory oversight in the context of nation states of such networks?

Wind: This is a topic that has been very close to Victor, for many years. This is an area where traditional trade statistics don't make any sense. If a product is manufactured in four countries, or six countries, what is the country of origin? I think this requires a fundamental change in the mental model that we have as to what is the country of origin because the original concept no longer makes sense... So, I'll let Victor answer.

Victor Fung: My view is very simply this: If you think about the WTO and the way we measure trade flows around the world, it assumes a very simple model, in which a product is made in Country A and it is shipped to Country B to be consumed. That is the fundamental assumption of the model. The question is where does the substantive transformation that creates the product take place...because that is where all of the value-added is.

But if you look at the model of dispersed manufacturing, the same product actually can be made in several countries before it becomes a finished product. And, if you say the substantive transformation then occurs in the final stage of finishing and basically that becomes the country of origin -- that last country, so to speak, gets charged for the full trade statistics, whereas it may capture only a portion of the total value added, it may only capture say 30% of the value added.

And so the problem with traditional trade statistics is that you are using a system to describe a world that has already evolved and no longer fits the model. Therefore, you get all of these distortions. A case in point is, for example, you hear about this huge trade surplus between China and the United States and it is causing a lot of friction in terms of trade relations and so on. But if you really look into it, maybe only 30% of the value-added occurs in China. A lot of the stuff is actually produced in the initial parts of the supply chain which originate somewhere in Southeast Asia. The parts and materials may go through one or two countries, before they end up in a product that is finished in China - but China gets charged for the full trade statistics.

So one of the most serious policy implications, if this model gets more and more widely used, is that the whole way that we look at the country of origin, the definition of where a product becomes substantively transformed, and the way we keep trade statistics, needs to be reexamined.

William Fung: Let me illustrate what Victor has said with a concrete example. If you look at your laptop, chances are that the memory device could have been made in Malaysia, the monitor could be made in Taiwan, and the laptop itself might have been assembled in China. But the highest value might be the Intel inside, the CPU chip.

Under the present trade statistics rules, if China exports that finished laptop to the United States, that becomes a Chinese export. Therefore, the trade flow is defined that way and it appears to be a Chinese export. But the value added on China's part, which is only the final assembly - which uses a lot of fairly cheap labor processes - could be far less than all of the other components entered and the technical software that goes into making that laptop.

So, you can see how the trade statistics could be totally distorted if you look at it in terms of value added -- rather than the final place where, as Victor said, it has been assembled. And, I think that there is a complete revamping needed in the world on how you record trade flows. This is because too much emphasis has been put on trade deficits leading to a call for sanctions against trade partners and so on.

And, I think that there is a rather unnecessary or almost impossible to achieve need for bilateral trade balances.  You know, it's almost impossible under this new world, where many countries participate in making a product... to call for bilateral trade balances between two countries -- whereas many countries participate in this whole process.

Knowledge@Wharton: What kind of policy changes would you like to see to address this situation?

Victor Fung: Well, we need to re-examine the whole issue of country of origin and not capture trade statistics the way that we are doing it. It should depend on allocating some concept of value added to different countries. But, of course this is a very deep theoretical issue that needs to be examined.

I'd like to touch on another major policy implication. As we see this model of dispersed manufacturing emerging further and further, what I see is an opportunity for more and more participation from small- and medium-sized enterprises from around the world.

At Li & Fung, because we splice the supply chain so finely and optimize each portion, we keep on talking about atomization of the supply chain. That is sort of an in-house term. But I think that the atomization of the supply chain also in a sense means the democratization of the supply chain since it allows more SMEs [small and medium enterprises] and smaller companies to participate. Many, many of our 9,000 suppliers from around the world are small and medium size enterprises. And, I think that that actually provides the world with a model for economic development, especially for some of the developing countries which is very crucial. It allows even SMEs in developing countries to participate in global supply chains.

Now, of course, there is a minimum price of entry. And in my mind, that minimum price of entry is that the governments that host these SMEs need to at least provide the SMEs with the minimum level of access on the IT front -- so that they can participate. And, also they have to have the infrastructure to be able to deal with the logistics of the goods flow in a very fast response manner. But once the government can actually provide those two enablers of IT and infrastructure logistics, then I think that SMEs can really participate. This democratization of the supply chain is a major trend in the world -- a major phenomenon and I think it is a very good development.

Knowledge@Wharton: One final question for all of you: What major lessons have you learned through this process of network orchestration that you'd like to share with Knowledge@Wharton's readers and listeners around the world?

Wind: The key lessons are captured by the framework that we propose in the book of trying to deal with network orchestration. They are primarily composed of three major dimensions. One of them is the need for a firm to start thinking not just about itself, the traditional firm - but how to balance the interest of the firm with the interest of the network.

I mention the concept that Victor had talked about in terms of competing network against network as opposed to firm against firm -- which has huge implications. So, how do you create this balance, realizing that you are operating as part of a network?

The second dimension we highlight is how you move away from traditional control. This is because in reality Li & Fung does not own any of the 9,000-plus companies. But yet, it has to deal with empowered companies, empowered consumers - so there's the whole balancing again between having a new type of control and the empowerment of the participants.

The third area is the need for balance between the traditional focus on specialization and capabilities for integration. It seems what we have here is a new paradigm for management that focuses on the network and the need to balance the network in the firm. This leads to new capabilities, new types of competencies that we need in terms of the orchestration of a network. So, we are learning from the lessons of this project and we're extremely excited about some of the implications. We are having a conference that is coming up in November and it is on network based strategies and competencies. This has been stimulated to a large extent by the work of this book.

William Fung: From the standpoint of running a firm on a day-to -day basis, one of the key words in my mind is speed and fast response. Your whole being is oriented now towards speedier response. The other word is outsourcing...radical outsourcing and orchestration of a network in that you don't really control everything in-house.

But at the same time you're focusing completely on turnaround time. If I were to construct a factory today, for example, the way that I would put a factory together would not be how to make very efficient long production runs. That is a thing of the past. The key in my mind is how to how to satisfy customers with very low minimum order quantities. You want to arrange a factory so that you can make line changes, very, very rapidly. And that flexible sort of production is going to be the key to the future.  

The way that you run an organization lightly and perform as a network orchestrater is that I think you really have to think constantly about speed of response. This means a very flat organization, total empowerment for people on the front lines, so that they can make decisions instantaneously on the spot. Also, you need to have a very strong IT network so that they have this information at their fingertips. At the same time, you have to think about an incentives system that will allow them to feel like they are entrepreneurs and that they are actually running their own small company. This has very serious implications.

If you can think of the opposite paradigm -- that the world did not go this way of global supply chains and orchestration of global networks but it went the other way with vertical integration -- then you would see a smaller and smaller number of larger and larger vertically integrated companies. Indeed, at one stage of the development, maybe 30 or 20 years ago, you actually did have this idea of saying that everything should be vertically integrated in house. That would be a completely different model. That would be a very vertically oriented hierarchical model.

And yet, we now have gone to a radically outsourced, very flat and very fast response organization. So, I think that that's the contrast and to me that's the major lesson from a managing of the firm standpoint.

Knowledge@Wharton: That's interesting. Would it be correct to assume that in your model network orchestration is not monopolistic? Or does the network become the monopolist?

Victor Fung: As I said earlier, it is the democratization of the supply chain. In fact, to us it's "the more the merrier. The more that we can get people into the network, the more we can actually have a network that hooks together more and more supplies -- the more opportunities we will have to optimize -- and the more we can involve people from different parts of the world and then they can bring different ideas -- a way of operating, and different capabilities into the network.

Wind: It is extremely important that you keep in mind that the lessons are really at all levels. The levels are obviously to the firm. The lessons are, in a much larger context, to public policy around the world and for economic development. And the concept of network orchestration is a very, very powerful one. So that even though there are implications in every one of these areas -- there are even implications for us at Wharton and in business schools around the world - in terms of what is management. Management under the model of network orchestration is dramatically different than the traditional concepts of management.

A Note to Readers:

Knowledge@Wharton and Wharton School Publishing are pleased to announce a global competition for the best strategies for competing in a flat world. Two prizes will be awarded, one for the best strategies that work and one for the best insights from failures.

For information about the competition, click http://www.competinginaflatworld.net/ - here or go to http://www.competinginaflatworld.net/ - www.competinginaflatworld.net



Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Nov/2007 at 7:22pm

So much gloom in the world………..:

Krugman: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/23/opinion/edkrug.php?WT.mc_id=rssopinion - Banks gone wild - IHT (11/25/2007)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b56079a8-9b71-11dc-8aad-0000779fd2ac.html - Wake up to the dangers of a deepening crisis: Summers - FT (11/25/2007)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7109614.stm - More insolvencies ahead for 2008 - BBC (11/26/2007)
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/property_and_mortgages/article2933895.ece - Sub-prime ‘time bomb’ is set to explode in Britain - UK Times (11/24/2007)

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20071126/tbs-eu-economy-forex-dollar-barroso-5268574_1.html - Weak dollar a 'problem' for world economy - EU president - Yahoo (11/26/2007)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/11/26/bcnbean126.xml - Bank of England warns credit crisis to worsen - UK Telegraph (11/26/2007)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_eSyZb6zpDQ&refer=home - Dollar Displaces Yen, Franc as Carry Trade Favorite Nov. 26 (Bloomberg)



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Nov/2007 at 7:39pm

Kulman….A buffet quote here please!



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 26/Nov/2007 at 7:48pm
Buffett seems to be busy X'mas shopping http://www.cnbc.com/id/21964375 - UK's Telegraph: Warren Buffett Is "Potential Buyer" of Northern Rock
 
As he says the most attractive bargains are available during market corrections/bear phase.
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 26/Nov/2007 at 5:06am
Whole world is smelling recession in http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/23/magazines/fortune/barr_recession.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2007112615 - USA  but I feel USA could avoid recession becoz interest rates are very high, so FED has this bramastra for assault. Also high oil price & metal price will slowly cools off, as USA cools down which will correct inflation (if any). All in all USA is in for a troublesome future. This is not a bad sign for India, which sees flood of FII inflows to save dollars. One can easily expect top dollar coming back to India big time once Indian doors are opened in next year and hence INR appreciating further.

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Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.


Posted By: Jarus
Date Posted: 04/Feb/2008 at 2:07pm

'It's going to be much worse'
Famed investor Jim Rogers sees hard times ahead for the United States - and a big opportunity looming in China.
By
mailto:[email protected] - Brian O'Keefe , senior editor
       
Jim Rogers says the Fed, and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, are out of control.    

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- You might expect Jim Rogers to be gloating a little bit. After all, the famed investor has been predicting a recession in the U.S. economy for months and shorting the shares of now-tanking Wall Street investment banks for even longer. And with fears of a recession sparking both a worldwide market sell-off and emergency action from Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke, Rogers again looks prescient - just as he has over the past few years as the China-driven commodities boom he predicted almost a decade ago began kicked into high gear. But when I reached him by phone in Singapore the other day there was little hint of celebration in his voice. Instead, he took a serious tone.

"I'm extremely worried," he says. "I have been for a while, but I just see things getting much worse this time around than I expected." To Rogers, a longtime Fed critic, Bernanke's decision to ride to the market's rescue with a 75-basis-point cut in the Fed's benchmark rate only a week before its scheduled meeting (at which time they cut it another 50 basis points) is the latest sign that the central bank isn't willing to provide the fiscal discipline that he thinks the economy desperately needs.

"Conceivably we could have just had recession, hard times, sliding dollar, inflation, etc., but I'm afraid it's going to be much worse," he says. "Bernanke is printing huge amounts of money. He's out of control and the Fed is out of control. We are probably going to have one of the worst recessions we've had since the Second World War. It's not a good scene."

Rogers looks at the Fed's willingness to add liquidity to an already inflationary environment and sees the history of the 1970s repeating itself. Does that mean stagflation? "It is a real danger and, in fact, a probability."

Where the opportunities are
The 1970s, of course, was when Rogers first made his reputation - and a lot of money - as George Soros's original partner in the Quantum Fund. And despite his gloomy outlook for the U.S., he still sees opportunities in today's world. In fact, he sees the recent correction as a potential gift for investors who know where to head in global markets: China.

Rogers has been fascinated with China ever since he rode his motorcycle across the country two decades ago, and he's been a full-fledged China bull for several years. In December he published his latest book, an investor-friendly tome titled "A Bull in China: How to Invest Profitably in the World's Greatest Market." And that same month he sold his beloved Manhattan townhouse for $15.75 million to a daughter of oil tycoon H. L. Hunt and moved his family full-time to Singapore - the better to be closer to the action in Beijing and Shanghai. (He bought the New York mansion 30 years ago for just over $100,000; not a bad return on his investment.) -

But in a November interview I conducted with Rogers , he admitted that he was rooting for a serious correction in China to cool off an overheating market and bring back prices to a reasonable level. With the bourses in Shanghai and Hong Kong both some 20% off their recent highs as of late January, Rogers says he's starting to consider new investments.

"I'm delighted to see what's happening in Shanghai and Hong Kong," he says. "As I've said, if things hadn't cooled off, the Chinese market was in danger of turning into a bubble. I find this most encouraging. The government's been doing its best to try and cool things off. Mainly they've been trying to deal with real estate but it's having an effect on stocks, too. I would suspect the correction isn't quite over in China. But I'm gearing up. I didn't put in any orders for tomorrow but I'm starting to prepare my list of things to buy in China. Whether I buy this week or this month or this quarter, who knows. But I'm starting to think about buying new shares in China for the first time in a while. And I'm not thinking about buying in America."

Ultimately, Rogers doesn't think that the troubles in the United States will be much of a drag on the prospects for the People's Republic. "Anybody who sells to Sears ( http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=SHLD&source=story_quote_link - SHLD - , http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/snapshots/749.html?source=story_f500_link - Fortune 500 ) or Wal-Mart ( http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=WMT&source=story_quote_link - WMT , http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/snapshots/1551.html?source=story_f500_link - Fortune 500 ) is going to be affected, without question," he says. "Some parts of the Chinese economy are going to be untouched, however. They won't even know America's in recession. They won't care if America falls off the face of the earth."

What's on his China buying list? Rogers says it will depend in large part on which stocks come down to the right level, but he's keeping his eye on certain high-growth sectors including tourism, agriculture, power generation and airlines.

The pullback in commodity prices on recession fears hasn't dampened his enthusiasm for resources investments, either. More like a cyclical correction in the middle of a long-term bull market. "Certainly some commodities are going to be affected," says Rogers. "But it's not as if the markets haven't figured this out. Remember the old expression: 'Dr. Copper is the best economist in the world.' Well, Dr. Nickel and Dr. Zinc figured out a few months ago what I thought I had figured out, that we were going to have a recession. Nickel is already down 50%. Other commodities may fall more. But I don't see the economics of agriculture being much affected at all. Maybe there will be a few less cotton shirts bought. Maybe there will be a few less tires bought. But the supply is under more duress than the demand." -

Once again Rogers draws on the 1970s in his analysis. "Think about the story of gold in the '70s," he says. "Gold went up 600%, and then it started correcting. It went down nearly every month for two years, nearly 50% from the high point. And everybody said, 'Well, that's the end of the gold market. It was just a fluke. It's over.' It scared everybody out. And then gold turned around and went up 850% from that level. This is what happens in markets. But the fundamentals of the secular bull market in commodities are not over any more now than they were for gold in the '70s."

Where he expects the pain to be most intense is on Wall Street. He says he hasn't covered his short positions on the investment banks or Citigroup ( http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=C&source=story_quote_link - C , http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/snapshots/309.html?source=story_f500_link - Fortune 500 ) and won't for a while. "Those things are going to go way, way, way down," says Rogers. "The investment banks are down now because of the problems in the credit market. Wait until the effects of the bear market come along. If you just go back and look at other bear markets, investment bank stocks have gone down enormously. We haven't gotten to that stage yet. It's going to bring their balance sheets under duress. This is going to get much worse. But that's where there have been excesses for the past decade or so. And whenever you have a bear market come along the great excesses of the previous period are the ones that get cleaned out the most."



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Do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do


Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 04/Feb/2008 at 2:40pm
now yahoo may join google!

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understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2008 at 9:04pm

Today’s ISM Servives index at 41.9 against an expected of 53.0 below the boom-bust level of 50.0 is confirming that it is very likely that the US is already in a Recession. Note that US is a Service based Economy.

 

The data was a 10-Year low BTW, however the most important was the market reaction. The Dollar rallied very sharply post the data and everything (Euro, Gold, Europe stocks, crude, US stocks etc etc) sold off, confirming the old Bubble Vision theory of “Dollar Rallies in a US Recession” is starting to take hold.

 

I have long maintained that the Data is not important, however markets’s reaction to the data is very very important. IMO, the market has played its cards already!
 
 


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2008 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

Today’s ISM Servives index at 41.9 against an expected of 53.0 below the boom-bust level of 50.0 is confirming that it is very likely that the US is already in a Recession. Note that US is a Service based Economy.

 

The data was a 10-Year low BTW, however the most important was the market reaction. The Dollar rallied very sharply post the data and everything (Euro, Gold, Europe stocks, crude, US stocks etc etc) sold off, confirming the old Bubble Vision theory of “Dollar Rallies in a US Recession” is starting to take hold.

 

I have long maintained that the Data is not important, however markets’s reaction to the data is very very important. IMO, the market has played its cards already!


Bubble,
Does this mean that  the US is officially in a recession  ?
Also Whats next ?




-------------
Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2008 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Mohan

Originally posted by BubbleVision

Today’s ISM Servives index at 41.9 against an expected of 53.0 below the boom-bust level of 50.0 is confirming that it is very likely that the US is already in a Recession. Note that US is a Service based Economy.

 

The data was a 10-Year low BTW, however the most important was the market reaction. The Dollar rallied very sharply post the data and everything (Euro, Gold, Europe stocks, crude, US stocks etc etc) sold off, confirming the old Bubble Vision theory of “Dollar Rallies in a US Recession” is starting to take hold.

 

I have long maintained that the Data is not important, however markets’s reaction to the data is very very important. IMO, the market has played its cards already!


Bubble,
Does this mean that  the US is officially in a recession  ?
Also Whats next ?


 
No No No...
 
Nothing official about it.
It would be official when the recovery is underway, after 9 months or so.
 
 
 


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2008 at 6:31am
Originally posted by BubbleVision

 

No No No...
 
Nothing official about it.
It would be official when the recovery is underway, after 9 months or so.
 
Further would like to add....
 
Just like "bear markets" or "bubble valuations", you never get confirmation as the process is unraveling. It is always after the Fact and is useless. The Fed's base case sanerio does not take a recession into view.
 
They would only confirm of a recession, when a recovery is underway already, with the message that "Look forward to a bright future, as the past has been done and dusted". LOL
 
Sounds like Mr Soro's theory of reflexivity!!!
 
 
 
 


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Jarus
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 12:12pm
Buffet Sees No Credit Crunch, Forecasts Lower Dollar (Update3)
2008-02-06 18:35 (New York)

   
By Sean Pasternak and Doug Alexander
    Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire Warren Buffett, chairman
of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., said a credit crunch isn't under way
and he forecast that the dollar's value is likely to decline.
    Funds are available and can be borrowed inexpensively,
Buffett said during an appearance in Toronto today as he took
questions from the audience. The U.S. dollar is likely to fall
during the next decade if policies don't change, he said.
    Buffett ``wouldn't quite call it a credit crunch'' when
asked to comment on global credit markets. ``Money is available
and it's really quite cheap,'' he said.
    The U.S. Federal Reserve said Feb. 4 that lenders made it
tougher for companies and consumers to get loans in the past
three months. About 80 percent of banks raised standards on
commercial-property loans, a record, while a majority tightened
terms on prime home mortgages, according to the Fed's survey of
senior loan officers.
    Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke warned Jan. 10 there was
``considerable evidence that banks have become more restrictive
in their lending to firms and households.''
    Buffett's company has the highest possible AAA credit
rating and had more than $40 billion in cash available as of
Sept. 30. He ranks among the world's richest people.
    Berkshire isn't planning to invest in existing bond
insurance companies, such as MBIA Inc. and Ambac Financial Group
Inc., Buffett said in an interview. Instead, Berkshire will
concentrate on its own new bond insurance company, he said.

                         Bond Insurers

    ``We've got an unlimited amount we can put in,'' Buffett
said during an interview after his appearance.
    New York Insurance Superintendent Eric Dinallo has been
trying to organize a bank-led rescue of Ambac to prevent
downgrades of the bond insurer that may roil credit markets, two
people briefed on the plan said last week. MBIA, the largest
bond insurer, said today it plans to raise $750 million by
selling stock.
    The only currency Berkshire directly owns now is the
Brazilian real, Buffett said. He blamed the declining dollar on
the current account deficit, with the U.S. trade imbalance
playing the largest role.
    ``If something is unsustainable, it's going to have
consequences; so far the consequences have been a general
decline in the dollar against major currencies,'' Buffett said.
``If we continue the same policies, we're going to get the same
results in the next five or 10 years.''

                       Inflation Outlook

    Buffett has said he was looking for acquisitions outside
the U.S., in part to hedge against long-term declines in the
dollar. The company made its first non-U.S. acquisition in 2006,
when it paid $4 billion for 80 percent of Israel-based Iscar
Metalworking Cos., a family-owned maker of industrial tools.
    Inflation has been in ``remission'' and is likely to be
more prevalent in the next 10 years, Buffett said. The
billionaire said he has ``no idea'' if the economy will go into
a recession and that the U.S. will do well in the long run.
    Buffett, 77, built Berkshire Hathaway over four decades,
turning a failing textile maker into a $200 billion investment
and holding company with businesses ranging from brick-making to
corporate jet leasing. The Omaha, Nebraska-based company gets
- about half its profit from insurance units, which include Geico.
    Buffett said he's likely to support either of the
Democratic candidates, Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, for the
U.S. presidential election in November.
    Buffett spoke to investor relations and corporate
communications executives to promote Berkshire's Business Wire
news distribution unit, which has expanded into Canada.

--With reporting by Josh P. Hamilton in New York. Editors: David
Scanlan, Walid el-Gabry

To contact the reporters on this story:
Sean B. Pasternak in Toronto at +1-416-203-5720 or
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] ;
Doug Alexander in Toronto at +1-416-203-5733 or
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

To contact the editors responsible for this story:
David Scanlan at +1-416-203-5722 or
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] ;
Rick Green in New York at +1-212-617-5804 or
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] .


-------------
Do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

Originally posted by BubbleVision

 

No No No...
 
Nothing official about it.
It would be official when the recovery is underway, after 9 months or so.
 
Further would like to add....
 
Just like "bear markets" or "bubble valuations", you never get confirmation as the process is unraveling. It is always after the Fact and is useless. The Fed's base case sanerio does not take a recession into view.
 
They would only confirm of a recession, when a recovery is underway already, with the message that "Look forward to a bright future, as the past has been done and dusted". LOL
 
Sounds like Mr Soro's theory of reflexivity!!! 
 
LOL,
 
I completely agree. Unofficially, The US is in a Recession. The signs are clearly visible on Main Street.
Like the old Pepsi slogan, " Nothing Official About it "
 
Most Importantly, not having a moron in the White House will help tremendously. Almost anyone else will be better than him.
Wondering how much of this mess is the result of the his 8 year in office.
 


-------------
Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 4:31am

"British growth in the past 15 years has depended almost entirely on three sectors - finance, housing and the public sector. Between them, they employ about one third of the workforce but have accounted for 120 per cent of employment growth. In other words all the other parts of the British economy have, in aggregate, been shrinking during those boom years.


Britain's specialisation in finance and business services has yielded big benefits in terms of higher living standards, since financial services have grown enormously in value in comparison with the manufactured goods that Britain imports. But this specialisation has also left the economy more narrowly focused, some would say unbalanced, and at risk from financial shocks. "


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 10:06am

 
No No No...
 
Nothing official about it.
It would be official when the recovery is underway, after 9 months or so.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bubble,
any significance of the 9 month time period ?Big%20smile


-------------
Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Mohan


 
any significance of the 9 month time period ?
 
Reminds me that 14th February is Valentine's Day & exactly 9 months later 14th November is Children's day.
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 10:45am
Originally posted by kulman

Originally posted by Mohan


 
any significance of the 9 month time period ?
 
Reminds me that 14th February is Valentine's Day & exactly 9 months later 14th November is Children's day.
 



Yeh Hui na Baat, Kulmanji's Back with a bang. ( No Pun intended ) Wink 


Wonderful Analysis. ClapClapClap

BTW, Just heard on TV 18 . Its AF's birthday today.


-------------
Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2008 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Mohan


 
No No No...
 
Nothing official about it.
It would be official when the recovery is underway, after 9 months or so.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubble,
any significance of the 9 month time period ?Big%20smile
 
HAHA nice Fun Kulman ji...
 
However, 9-Months was more in Economic sense Mohanji....See here is a historical long term chart I made for you. This is US GDP quarterly annualised from 1947.
 
Note that the 4-quarterly MA has never gone into negative region since 1991. Further, it is rare for an ecomony to see more than 3 back to back negative quarters of growth.
 
However, IF it is more than 9-Months this time, be afraid, be very very afraid.
 
I believe that a sharp Recession is far better than a prolonged period of low growth (see Japan). However, sorrily, the latter is my base case scenario along with STAGFLATION.
 
 
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2008 at 9:22pm

Note that the above chart is updated till today, with the last bar being Q4-2007 Advance of 0.6% quarterly annualized.



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2008 at 9:41pm
If I may make an inference from the chart.
The fluctuations are getting narrower.
Is the US economy Flat lining ?

Reminds me of the Movie Flatliners


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2008 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Mohan

If I may make an inference from the chart.
The fluctuations are getting narrower.
Is the US economy Flat lining ?

Reminds me of the Movie Flatliners
 
Correct and Astute observation. This means that the Economy is losing out on its volatility on Growth side. This would also mean long period of low Growth is very likely (Again Japan?) 
 
I will try and put the US CPI chart here for the same period, which shows Rising inflation in time of slowing growth. (Again Stagflation?)
 
Further, slow period with low volatility in growth means low volatility in financial markets, as they lose out on cyclicality.
 
Low volatility in Financial markets ==> Less chances to make money
:-(
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2008 at 11:21pm
So is the Converse true too over here ?

Less chance to lose money


Also, like  flatliners, I meant that the sins of the past come back to haunt, like in the movie.


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 09/Feb/2008 at 9:57am

New York Times must be reading TED…….They have copied a hard core theme from here…

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/business/worldbusiness/09japan.html?_r=2&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin - From Japan’s Slump in 1990s, Lessons for U.S.

 

In broad strokes, the parallels are alarming. After a long boom, the Japanese economy in the 1990s, as America’s today, was jolted by a sharp plunge in the real estate market.

In Tokyo, the government bankers and policy makers were slow to recognize the scope of the problem. Bad loans piled up. The financial troubles rippled through the economy as consumer spending and job growth fell.

The Japanese slump proved extraordinarily long-lived, ending only a few years ago, a stretch of stagnation known as Japan’s lost decade. It was a humbling and lasting setback for a nation once feared and admired as a model of economic dynamism.

The shadow of Japan hangs over the American economy these days. The United States is sliding into a housing-driven downturn, economists say, just as it also appears to be losing some of its global edge from the productivity-enhancing gains driven by the technology investments of recent decades. For Japan, experts point out, the housing bubble burst just as the rise of China as an export power hurt Japanese manufacturers.

A lengthy slowdown, they say, could alter the economic psychology of America, echoing the Japanese pattern, as the nation enters a period of diminished confidence that restrains consumer spending and business investment.

“I think there are a lot more similarities than people are willing to admit,” said Clyde V. Prestowitz, president of the Economic Strategy Institute, a Washington-based policy research organization that has long promoted American industry.

“The American economy is very fragile now,” said Mr. Prestowitz, who was a trade negotiator with Japan in the Reagan administration.

But the extreme Japanese experience, most analysts agree, stands less as a prediction of America’s fate than as a cautionary example. A Japan-style quagmire, they say, is an outcome that can be avoided in the United States with sound economic policy.

Japan’s central bank and finance ministry, economists say, waited far too long — years — before taking steps to revive Japan’s economy in the 1990s.

The Federal Reserve, while slow to see the credit crisis spilling into the broader economy last year, has acted much more decisively in recent weeks. The Fed has twice cut short-term interest rates sharply, lowering its benchmark rate to 3 percent, reflecting both the central bank’s anxiety and its determination to try to lift the economy despite serious concerns about the risk of higher inflation.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ben_s_bernanke/index.html?inline=nyt-per - - Princeton University and a student of Japan’s policy missteps. And while a number of experts fault Mr. Bernanke for what they see as the Fed’s poor communications with both Main Street and Wall Street, the central bank’s recent moves suggest that he has taken those lessons to heart.

His past comments, however, indicate that Mr. Bernanke thinks that low interest rates alone are not enough to revive an ailing economy. In a 2003 speech in Tokyo, for example, he offered a prescription for Japan’s malaise: a more aggressive monetary policy and “explicit, though temporary, cooperation between the monetary and fiscal authorities” to stimulate the economy.

Washington understands that message. Congress — America’s fiscal authority — moved unexpectedly rapidly to approve a $168 billion http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united_states_economy/economic_stimulus/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier - “The United States is moving faster than the Japanese did,” said Charles Yuji Horioka, a professor of economics at Osaka University. “So far, so good. But American policy makers have to be ready to take further steps as needed.”

The American economy, many economists predict, will deteriorate further before things turn around. The government’s report last week that employment fell in January, the first decline in more than four years, was the latest sign of trouble. The depth and duration of the downturn, economists say, will largely depend on how much more bad news is coming from banks and other financial institutions.

Nouriel Roubini, an economics professor at the Stern School of Business at http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/new_york_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org - In his view, the American economy is already in recession and faces a lengthy downturn of a year or more, before growth recovers.

Still, even Mr. Roubini sees scant chance of the United States following Japan’s path. “I’m very pessimistic, but I don’t think it will be anything like Japan,” he said.

Compared with the boom-bust cycle in Japan, the American housing market looks positively sedate. In the major metropolitan regions of the United States, house prices rose 82 percent from the end of the last recession in November 2001 to their peak in June 2006, according to the Standard & Poor’s Case-Shiller home price index. Since the peak, house prices have declined about 10 percent, and most economists expect a further decline of 10 to 15 percent.

In Japan, housing prices in the major metropolitan regions nearly tripled from 1985 to 1991, then proceeded to lose two-thirds of their value over the next 14 years. Today, prices have risen slightly, according to Japanese government statistics. Still, Japanese house prices last year were only slightly higher than the level before the boom, more than two decades ago.

In Japan, government officials not only tolerated the housing price bubble, economists say, they actively encouraged it. Fearful that a strengthening yen was hurting Japanese exporters, the Ministry of Finance urged banks to lend to real estate developers so that a building boom and increased consumer spending would lift the economy.

Japan’s post-bubble recession should have lasted from 1992 to 1994, according to Adam S. Posen, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. But Japanese officials were too conservative and too protective of failing banks, he said, and thus prone to policy steps that were counterproductive, like the decision in 1997 to raise Japan’s sales tax to 5 percent, from 3 percent.

“What kept Japan down was repeated macroeconomic policy mistakes,” Mr. Posen observed.

Japan’s close-knit business and government culture, economists say, slowed its response to the crisis and prolonged the slump. The industrial groups, or keiretsu, had tight links with banks, so when a bank got in trouble it was often quietly bailed out temporarily with loans or investments from other members of the corporate group. Japanese bank regulators, economists note, tended to be friendly and permissive.

Eventually, Japan experts say, banking regulation and disclosure rules were tightened up.

“In America, we force the bad news out faster than the Japanese did, and we deal with it faster,” said Edward J. Lincoln, an economist and director of the Japan-U.S. Center for Business and Economic Studies at New York University. “That should limit the damage from the economic shock instead of drag it out, as they did in Japan.”

Though not expected to reach the proportions it reached in Japan, the economic pain in America could be considerable, some analysts warn. They see disturbing parallels with Japan in that the depths of the financial troubles in United States are still not known, and the shock of the housing market slump may bring a lasting recalibration of the national mood, lowering expectations and confidence.

In Japan, the slump lasted longer than expected not just because of policy mistakes, notes Kenneth S. Rogoff, a professor of economics at http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/harvard_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org - because of some underlying global economic shifts. Starting in the 1990s, he said, Japan’s exporters began facing stiffer competition from other nations in Asia, particularly China.

Mr. Rogoff sees a similar drag on the American economy from the slowdown in the rapid growth in productivity that began in the mid-1990s, often attributed to technology-driven gains. Last year, he said, the government revised its estimate of the productivity growth rate since 2003 down to about 1.6 percent a year, far lower than 2.5 percent average in the years before.

“It certainly appears that the U.S. productivity miracle is over,” Mr. Rogoff said. “Our resilience as an economy is way down. So it looks like the United States will experience a milder version of the Japanese disease.”

 

 



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: ndzapak
Date Posted: 12/Feb/2008 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by Jarus

Buffet Sees No Credit Crunch, Forecasts Lower Dollar (Update3)
 
Buffett is putting his money where his mouth is ! As he himself say its
for profit and not for charity.
 
This is what makes him the greatest investor on earth, mastering
"greed & fear"
 
Billionaire investor Warren Buffett said he offered to assume responsibility for $800 billion of municipal bonds guaranteed by MBIA Inc., Ambac Financial Group Inc. and FGIC Corp
 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=adO.5JgzwHJs&refer=home - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=adO.5JgzwHJs&refer=home

 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avHh5d6JhCS0&refer=home - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avHh5d6JhCS0&refer=home

 



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the Equitydesk is the best


Posted By: swapan
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2008 at 2:43am
Professor Nouriel Roubini of the Stern School of Business at New York University. Nouriel has become known for his rather clear clarion calls that the housing bubble would lead to a credit crisis and possibly much worse. He has been one who has been on CNBC and was in the clear minority early last year, but now no one is laughing.
 
A very interesting read of the worst case scenario: Complete meltdown of the financial systems...
 
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The Rising Risk of a Systemic Financial Meltdown:
The Twelve Steps to Financial Disaster

by Nouriel Roubini

Why did the Fed ease the Fed Funds rate by a whopping 125bps in eight days this past January? It is true that most macro indicators are heading south and suggesting a deep and severe recession that has already started. But the flow of bad macro news in mid-January did not justify, by itself, such a radical inter-meeting emergency Fed action followed by another cut at the formal FOMC meeting.

To understand the Fed actions one has to realize that there is now a rising probability of a "catastrophic" financial and economic outcome, i.e. a vicious circle where a deep recession makes the financial losses more severe and where, in turn, large and growing financial losses and a financial meltdown make the recession even more severe. The Fed is seriously worried about this vicious circle and about the risks of a systemic financial meltdown.

That is the reason the Fed had thrown all caution to the wind - after a year in which it was behind the curve and underplaying the economic and financial risks - and has taken a very aggressive approach to risk management; this is a much more aggressive approach than the Greenspan one in spite of the initial views that the Bernanke Fed would be more cautious than Greenspan in reacting to economic and financial vulnerabilities.

To understand the risks that the financial system is facing today I present the "nightmare" or "catastrophic" scenario that the Fed and financial officials around the world are now worried about. Such a scenario - however extreme - has a rising and significant probability of occurring. Thus, it does not describe a very low probability event but rather an outcome that is quite possible.

Start first with the recession that is now enveloping the US economy. Let us a**ume - as likely - that this recession - that already started in December 2007 - will be worse than the mild ones - that lasted 8 months - that occurred in 1990-91 and 2001. The recession of 2008 will be more severe for several reasons: first, we have the biggest housing bust in US history with home prices likely to eventually fall 20 to 30%; second, because of a credit bubble that went beyond mortgages and because of reckless financial innovation and securitization the ongoing credit bust will lead to a severe credit crunch; third, US households - whose consumption is over 70% of GDP - have spent well beyond their means for years now piling up a ma**ive amount of debt, both mortgage and otherwise; now that home prices are falling and a severe credit crunch is emerging the retrenchment of private consumption will be serious and protracted. So let us suppose that the recession of 2008 will last at least four quarters and, possibly, up to six quarters. What will be the consequences of it?

Here are the twelve steps or stages of a scenario of systemic financial meltdown a**ociated with this severe economic recession.

First, this is the worst housing recession in US history and there is no sign it will bottom out any time soon. At this point it is clear that US home prices will fall between 20% and 30% from their bubbly peak; that would wipe out between $4 trillion and $6 trillion of household wealth. While the subprime meltdown is likely to cause about 2.2 million foreclosures, a 30% fall in home values would imply that over 10 million households would have negative equity in their homes and would have a big incentive to use "jingle mail" (i.e. default, put the home keys in an envelope and send it to their mortgage bank). Moreover, soon enough a few very large home builders will go bankrupt and join the dozens of other small ones that have already gone bankrupt thus leading to another free fall in home builders' stock prices that have irrationally rallied in the last few weeks in spite of a worsening housing recession.

Second, losses for the financial system from the subprime disaster are now estimated to be as high as $250 to $300 billion. But the financial losses will not be only in subprime mortgages and the related RMBS and CDOs. They are now spreading to near prime and prime mortgages as the same reckless lending practices in subprime (no down-payment, no verification of income, jobs and a**ets (i.e. NINJA or LIAR loans), interest rate only, negative amortization, teaser rates, etc.) were occurring across the entire spectrum of mortgages; about 60% of all mortgage origination since 2005 through 2007 had these reckless and toxic features. So this is a generalized mortgage crisis and meltdown, not just a subprime one. And losses among all sorts of mortgages will sharply increase as home prices fall sharply and the economy spins into a serious recession. Goldman Sachs now estimates total mortgage credit losses of about $400 billion; but the eventual figures could be much larger if home prices fall more than 20%. Also, the RMBS and CDO markets for securitization of mortgages - already dead for subprime and frozen for other mortgages - remain in a severe credit crunch, thus reducing further the ability of banks to originate mortgages. The mortgage credit crunch will become even more severe.

Also add to the woes and losses of the financial institutions the meltdown of hundreds of billions of off balance SIVs and conduits; this meltdown and the roll-off of the ABCP market has forced banks to bring back on balance sheet these toxic off balance sheet vehicles adding to the capital and liquidity crunch of the financial institutions and adding to their on balance sheet losses. And because of securitization the securitized toxic waste has been spread from banks to capital markets and their investors in the US and abroad, thus increasing - rather than reducing systemic risk - and making the credit crunch global.

Third, the recession will lead - as it is already doing - to a sharp increase in defaults on other forms of unsecured consumer debt: credit cards, auto loans, student loans. There are dozens of millions of subprime credit cards and subprime auto loans in the US. And again defaults in these consumer debt categories will not be limited to subprime borrowers. So add these losses to the financial losses of banks and of other financial institutions (as also these debts were securitized in ABS products), thus leading to a more severe credit crunch. As the Fed loan officers survey suggest the credit crunch is spreading throughout the mortgage market and from mortgages to consumer credit, and from large banks to smaller banks.

Fourth, while there is serious uncertainty about the losses that monolines will undertake on their insurance of RMBS, CDO and other toxic ABS products, it is now clear that such losses are much higher than the $10-15 billion rescue package that regulators are trying to patch up. Some monolines are actually borderline insolvent and none of them deserves at this point a AAA rating regardless of how much realistic recapitalization is provided. Any business that required an AAA rating to stay in business is a business that does not deserve such a rating in the first place. The monolines should be downgraded as no private rescue package - short of an unlikely public bailout - is realistic or feasible given the deep losses of the monolines on their insurance of toxic ABS products.

Next, the downgrade of the monolines will lead to another $150 of writedowns on ABS portfolios for financial institutions that have already ma**ive losses. It will also lead to additional losses on their portfolio of muni bonds. The downgrade of the monolines will also lead to large losses - and potential runs - on the money market funds that invested in some of these toxic products. The money market funds that are backed by banks or that bought liquidity protection from banks against the risk of a fall in the NAV may avoid a run but such a rescue will exacerbate the capital and liquidity problems of their underwriters. The monolines' downgrade will then also lead to another sharp drop in US equity markets that are already shaken by the risk of a severe recession and large losses in the financial system.

Fifth, the commercial real estate loan market will soon enter into a meltdown similar to the subprime one. Lending practices in commercial real estate were as reckless as those in residential real estate. The housing crisis will lead - with a short lag - to a bust in non-residential construction as no one will want to build offices, stores, shopping malls/centers in ghost towns. The CMBX index is already pricing a ma**ive increase in credit spreads for non-residential mortgages/loans. And new origination of commercial real estate mortgages is already semi-frozen today; the commercial real estate mortgage market is already seizing up today.

Sixth, it is possible that some large regional or even national bank that is very exposed to mortgages, residential and commercial, will go bankrupt. Thus some big banks may join the 200 plus subprime lenders that have gone bankrupt. This, like in the case of Northern Rock, will lead to depositors' panic and concerns about deposit insurance. The Fed will have to reaffirm the implicit doctrine that some banks are too big to be allowed to fail. But these bank bankruptcies will lead to severe fiscal losses of bank bailout and effective nationalization of the affected institutions. Already Countrywide - an institution that was more likely insolvent than illiquid - has been bailed out with public money via a $55 billion loan from the FHLB system, a semi-public system of funding of mortgage lenders. Banks' bankruptcies will add to an already severe credit crunch.

Seventh, the banks losses on their portfolio of leveraged loans are already large and growing. The ability of financial institutions to syndicate and securitize their leveraged loans - a good chunk of which were issued to finance very risky and reckless LBOs - is now at serious risk. And hundreds of billions of dollars of leveraged loans are now stuck on the balance sheet of financial institutions at values well below par (currently about 90 cents on the dollar but soon much lower). Add to this that many reckless LBOs (as senseless LBOs with debt to earnings ratio of seven or eight had become the norm during the go-go days of the credit bubble) have now been postponed, restructured or cancelled. And add to this problem the fact that some actual large LBOs will end up into bankruptcy as some of these corporations taken private are effectively bankrupt in a recession and given the repricing of risk; convenant-lite and PIK toggles may only postpone - not avoid - such bankruptcies and make them uglier when they do eventually occur. The leveraged loans mess is already leading to a freezing up of the CLO market and to growing losses for financial institutions.

Eighth, once a severe recession is underway a ma**ive wave of corporate defaults will take place. In a typical year US corporate default rates are about 3.8% (average for 1971-2007); in 2006 and 2007 this figure was a puny 0.6%. And in a typical US recession such default rates surge above 10%. Also during such distressed periods the RGD - or recovery given default - rates are much lower, thus adding to the total losses from a default. Default rates were very low in the last two years because of a slosh of liquidity, easy credit conditions and very low spreads (with junk bond yields being only 260bps above Treasuries until mid June 2007). But now the repricing of risk has been ma**ive: junk bond spreads close to 700bps, iTraxx and CDX indices pricing ma**ive corporate default rates and the junk bond yield issuance market is now semi-frozen.

While on average the US and European corporations are in better shape - in terms of profitability and debt burden - than in 2001 there is a large fat tail of corporations with very low profitability and that have piled up a ma** of junk bond debt that will soon come to refinancing at much higher spreads. Corporate default rates will surge during the 2008 recession and peak well above 10% based on recent studies. And once defaults are higher and credit spreads higher ma**ive losses will occur among the credit default swaps (CDS) that provided protection against corporate defaults. Estimates of the losses on a notional value of $50 trillion CDS against a bond base of $5 trillion are varied (from $20 billion to $250 billion with a number closer to the latter figure more likely). Losses on CDS do not represent only a transfer of wealth from those who sold protection to those who bought it. If losses are large some of the counterparties who sold protection - possibly large institutions such as monolines, some hedge funds or a large broker dealer - may go bankrupt leading to even greater systemic risk as those who bought protection may face counterparties who cannot pay.

Ninth, the "shadow banking system" (as defined by the PIMCO folks) or more precisely the "shadow financial system" (as it is composed by non-bank financial institutions) will soon get into serious trouble. This shadow financial system is composed of financial institutions that - like banks - borrow short and in liquid forms and lend or invest long in more illiquid a**ets. This system includes: SIVs, conduits, money market funds, monolines, investment banks, hedge funds and other non-bank financial institutions. All these institutions are subject to market risk, credit risk (given their risky investments) and especially liquidity/rollover risk as their short term liquid liabilities can be rolled off easily while their a**ets are more long term and illiquid. Unlike banks these non-bank financial institutions don't have direct or indirect access to the central bank's lender of last resort support as they are not depository institutions. Thus, in the case of financial distress and/or illiquidity they may go bankrupt because of both insolvency and/or lack of liquidity and inability to roll over or refinance their short term liabilities. Deepening problems in the economy and in the financial markets and poor risk managements will lead some of these institutions to go belly up: a few large hedge funds, a few money market funds, the entire SIV system and, possibly, one or two large and systemically important broker dealers. Dealing with the distress of this shadow financial system will be very problematic as this system - stressed by credit and liquidity problems - cannot be directly rescued by the central banks in the way that banks can.

Tenth, stock markets in the US and abroad will start pricing a severe US recession - rather than a mild recession - and a sharp global economic slowdown. The fall in stock markets - after the late January 2008 rally fizzles out - will resume as investors will soon realize that the economic downturn is more severe, that the monolines will not be rescued, that financial losses will mount, and that earnings will sharply drop in a recession not just among financial firms but also non financial ones. A few long equity hedge funds will go belly up in 2008 after the ma**ive losses of many hedge funds in August, November and, again, January 2008. Large margin calls will be triggered for long equity investors and another round of ma**ive equity shorting will take place. Long covering and margin calls will lead to a cascading fall in equity markets in the US and a transmission to global equity markets. US and global equity markets will enter into a persistent bear market as in a typical US recession the S&P500 falls by about 28%.

Eleventh, the worsening credit crunch that is affecting most credit markets and credit derivative markets will lead to a dry-up of liquidity in a variety of financial markets, including otherwise very liquid derivatives markets. Another round of credit crunch in interbank markets will ensue triggered by counterparty risk, lack of trust, liquidity premia and credit risk. A variety of interbank rates - TED spreads, BOR-OIS spreads, BOT - Tbill spreads, interbank-policy rate spreads, swap spreads, VIX and other gauges of investors' risk aversion - will ma**ively widen again. Even the easing of the liquidity crunch after ma**ive central banks' actions in December and January will reverse as credit concerns keep interbank spread wide in spite of further injections of liquidity by central banks.

Twelfth, a vicious circle of losses, capital reduction, credit contraction, forced liquidation and fire sales of a**ets at below fundamental prices will ensue leading to a cascading and mounting cycle of losses and further credit contraction. In illiquid market actual market prices are now even lower than the lower fundamental value that they now have given the credit problems in the economy. Market prices include a large illiquidity discount on top of the discount due to the credit and fundamental problems of the underlying a**ets that are backing the distressed financial a**ets. Capital losses will lead to margin calls and further reduction of risk taking by a variety of financial institutions that are now forced to mark to market their positions. Such a forced fire sale of a**ets in illiquid markets will lead to further losses that will further contract credit and trigger further margin calls and disintermediation of credit. The triggering event for the next round of this cascade is the downgrade of the monolines and the ensuing sharp drop in equity markets; both will trigger margin calls and further credit disintermediation.

Based on estimates by Goldman Sachs $200 billion of losses in the financial system lead to a contraction of credit of $2 trillion given that institutions hold about $10 of a**ets per dollar of capital. The recapitalization of banks sovereign wealth funds - about $80 billion so far - will be unable to stop this credit disintermediation - (the move from off balance sheet to on balance sheet and moves of a**ets and liabilities from the shadow banking system to the formal banking system) and the ensuing contraction in credit as the mounting losses will dominate by a large margin any bank recapitalization from SWFs. A contagious and cascading spiral of credit disintermediation, credit contraction, sharp fall in a**et prices and sharp widening in credit spreads will then be transmitted to most parts of the financial system. This ma**ive credit crunch will make the economic contraction more severe and lead to further financial losses. Total losses in the financial system will add up to more than $1 trillion and the economic recession will become deeper, more protracted and severe.

A near global economic recession will ensue as the financial and credit losses and the credit crunch spread around the world. Panic, fire sales, cascading fall in a**et prices will exacerbate the financial and real economic distress as a number of large and systemically important financial institutions go bankrupt. A 1987 style stock market crash could occur leading to further panic and severe financial and economic distress. Monetary and fiscal easing will not be able to prevent a systemic financial meltdown as credit and insolvency problems trump illiquidity problems. The lack of trust in counterparties - driven by the opacity and lack of transparency in financial markets, and uncertainty about the size of the losses and who is holding the toxic waste securities - will add to the impotence of monetary policy and lead to ma**ive hoarding of liquidity that will exacerbates the liquidity and credit crunch.

In this meltdown scenario US and global financial markets will experience their most severe crisis in the last quarter of a century.

Can the Fed and other financial officials avoid this nightmare scenario that keeps them awake at night? The answer to this question - to be detailed in a follow-up article - is twofold: first, it is not easy to manage and control such a contagious financial crisis that is more severe and dangerous than any faced by the US in a quarter of a century; second, the extent and severity of this financial crisis will depend on whether the policy response - monetary, fiscal, regulatory, financial and otherwise - is coherent, timely and credible. I will argue - in my next article - that one should be pessimistic about the ability of policy and financial authorities to manage and contain a crisis of this magnitude; thus, one should be prepared for the worst, i.e. a systemic financial crisis.

 
 
 


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 21/Feb/2008 at 3:50pm

*EU COMMISSION CUTS EUROPEAN GROWTH FORECASTS AND BOOSTS EUROPEAN INFLATION FORECASTS

 

- Cuts 2008 EU GDP forecast to 1.8% from 2.2%

- Raises 2008 EU inflation forecast to 2.6% from 2.1%

 

- Cuts 2008 German GDP forecast to 1.6% from 2.1%

- Raises 2008 German inflation forecast to 2.3% from 2.0%

 

- Cuts 2008 UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2%

- Raises 2008 UK inflation forecast to 2.5% from 2.2%

 

- Cuts 2008 French GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.0%

- Raises 2008 French inflation forecast to 2.4% from 1.7%

 

- Cuts 2008 Italian GDP forecast to 0.7% from 1.4%

- Raises 2008 Italian inflation forecast to 2.7% from 2.0%

 

- Cuts 2008 Spanish GDP forecast to 2.7% from 3.0%

- Raises 2008 Spanish inflation forecast to 3.7% from 2.9%

 

- Inflationary pressures are coming from food and energy

- Risks to the growth outlook remain on the downside

- Risks to inflation remain on the upside

- Inflation expected to return to normal in Q4

 

- Forecasts assume the Euro at $1.47

 

Stagflation!!! ……. AAAA  AAHA
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Feb/2008 at 8:53pm

Got this excellent piece from a friend after the US PPI Numbers today....Goes nicely with a Stagflationary scenario.

--------------------------
The problem is the US isn't the only demand force out there anymore. Inflation is remaining stubborn because it is being underpinned by the newer less unilateral global consumption forces. US (or whoever) growth slows because its economy is 70/75 consumption. Global competition for a demand in has meant inflation has not turned down because others (newfound consumers) have not slowed down. I am not saying its not going to happen but the data is telling us the "US is the consumer of last resort" obviously stopped being the case a while ago but no one annouced that with a neon sign. Ben and everyone else's problem is that the inflation problem is out of their control much like the welcome disinflationary force of globalized supply for the past twenty-five years was a benefit they did not conjure but where happy to take credit for (at least Greenspan was).

The first stage of globalization produced the benefits of high-growth and low inflation underpinning asset prices. This next stage is what happens when these economies compete not as producers but consumers.
--------------------------
 
First stage of globalization reffers to 1990's to 2005 odd, with China causing disinflation.
 
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 14/Mar/2008 at 11:56pm

Bernanke on http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke20080314a.htm - Fostering Sustainable Home Ownership

Bernanke says: "The current high rate of delinquencies and foreclosures is not confined to the subprime market. In 2007, about 45 percent of foreclosures were on prime, near-prime, or government-backed mortgages. "
 
Very very important! The implication of this could be huge!!!


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 14/Mar/2008 at 8:54am
This is stunning. This is solid of proof of what a lot of academics have been saying.
Homeowners are willingly walking away even if they can afford to pay the mortgage.
Game Over.

If http://Youwalkaway.com - You Walk Away were a stock. I would be massively long on it.
Alternately one can probably still make money by buying the http://finance.google.com/finance?q=AMEX%3ASKF - SKF ETF that shorts financial companies.

http://s.wsj.net/article/SB120424677934501611.html?mod=most_emailed_day - WSJ article detailing the walk away phenomenon.

Goldman Sachs economists estimate that as much as $3 trillion in mortgages could be underwater by the end of the year, leaving 30% of the country's outstanding mortgages in negative equity. Since there is roughly $1 trillion in subprime mortgages outstanding, that means a large amount of better-quality mortgages, such as prime and Alt-A -- a category between prime and subprime -- will be attached to negative equity.


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 14/Mar/2008 at 11:08am
goldman sachs will say lot of things ....good companies will take advantage of this ....bring out more bad news and make people sell sell sell.....and say world will end if they dont ...but really this is way over the top so much speculation over the air and oil still rocketing


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2008 at 3:23pm
Oil appreciation can be partly attributed to the dollar depreciation.

We (India) are getting sc#$@*^ from both front & rear. Oil price rising and Rupee going down because of FII outflows.

How long can the govt keep subsidizing petrol/diesel ?
Any idea about what the real price of Petrol is ?

UPA is leaving all the problems for the next govt. I hope the next elections throws up a decisive majority, otherwise we are back to the dark days of Devegowda/Gujral and that would be such a shame.


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 24/Mar/2008 at 3:54pm
JPMorgan Reportedly in Talks to Increase Bear Stearns Offer to $10 a Share

NEW YORK (AP) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. was discussing a deal that would increase fivefold its offer for Bear Stearns Cos. to $10 a share, The New York Times reported Monday.

The talks Sunday were an attempt to satisfy Bear Stearns stockholders upset over JPMorgan's offer of $2 a share for the struggling investment bank, the newspaper said on its Web site, citing people involved in the negotiations.

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The original price for Bear Stearns was part of a deal struck last week at the urging of the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department.

The Fed, which would need to approve any change in the agreement, was balking at the new price, the Times said. Such opposition could postpone the new agreement or derail it entirely.

In an attempt to speed majority shareholder approval, Bears board was trying to authorize the sale of 39.5 percent of the firm to JPMorgan, the Times said. State law in Delaware, where the companies are incorporated, allows a company to sell up to 40 percent without shareholder approval.

A spokeswoman for JPMorgan declined to comment Sunday night, the Times said. A Bear Stearns representative could not be reached.

A spokesman for the Federal Reserve would not comment on the central banks involvement in the negotiations, but denied it had directed the original sale price, the newspaper said.




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happy & wise investing


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 27/Mar/2008 at 2:51pm

REMEMBER THE LAST TIME GLOBALIZATION COLLAPSED?

"Remember Friday, March, 14 2008: it was the day the dream of global free-market capitalism died," says the Financial Times' Martin Wolf. "For three decades we have moved towards market-driven financial systems. By its decision to rescue Bear Stearns, the Federal Reserve, the institution responsible for monetary policy in the U.S., chief protagonist of free-market capitalism, declared this era over."

Mr. Wolf argues that market deregulation has reached its limits, echoing Joseph Ackermann, chief executive of Deutsche Bank, who said that he "no longer believes in the market's self-healing power". Mr Wolf adds: "If the U.S. itself has passed the high water mark of financial deregulation, this will have wide global implications. Until recently, it was possible to tell the Chinese, the Indians or those who suffered significant financial crises in the past two decades that there existed a financial system both free and robust. That is the case no longer. It will be hard, indeed, to persuade such countries that the market failures revealed in the U.S. and other high-income countries are not a dire warning. If the U.S., with its vast experience and resources, was unable to avoid these traps, why, they will ask, should we expect to do better?"

If Mr. Wolf is correct, emerging economies will question the value of free-market capitalism. Market liberalization and integration of emerging economies will inevitably take a back seat, and globalization may sink. This sounds like a ridiculous argument, but history shows us that this scenario cannot be ignored.

"The last age of globalization resembled the current one in numerous ways," says Niall Ferguson, an award winning Scottish historian, writing in the March/April 2005 issue of Foreign Affairs magazine. "It was characterized by relatively free trade, limited restrictions on migration, and hardly any regulation of capital flows. Inflation was low. A wave of technological innovation was revolutionizing the communications and energy sectors; the world first discovered the joys of the telephone, the radio, the internal combustion engine, and paved roads. The U.S. economy was the biggest in the world, and the development of its massive internal market had become the principal source of business innovation. China was opening up, raising all kinds of expectations in the West, and Russia was growing rapidly."

"World War I wrecked all of this," Ferguson argues. "Global markets were disrupted and disconnected, first by economic warfare, then by postwar protectionism. Prices went haywire: a number of major economies (Germany's among them) suffered from both hyperinflation and steep deflation in the space of a decade. The technological advances of the 1900s petered out: innovation hit a plateau, and stagnating consumption discouraged the development of even existing technologies such as the automobile. After faltering during the war, overheating in the 1920s, and languishing throughout the 1930s in the doldrums of depression, the U.S. economy ceased to be the most dynamic in the world. China succumbed to civil war and foreign invasion, defaulting on its debts and disappointing optimists in the West. Russia suffered revolution, civil war, tyranny, and foreign invasion."

World War I was the catalyst for globalization's collapse at the start of the 20th century. Will the fallout from the current market crisis, i.e. the end of market deregulation, lead to the collapse of the current age of globalization?

Yes, that sounds absurd and sensationalistic. I don't really buy the argument, but there are economic parallels that can't be dismissed.

"With the benefit of hindsight, however, five factors can be seen to have precipitated the global explosion of 1914-18," explains Ferguson. "The first cause was imperial overstretch. By 1914, the British Empire was showing signs of being a "weary Titan," in the words of the poet Matthew Arnold. It lacked the will to build up an army capable of deterring Germany from staging a rival bid for European hegemony (if not world power). As the world's policeman, distracted by old and new commitments in Asia and Africa, the United Kingdom's beat had simply become too big."

"Great-power rivalry was another principal cause of the catastrophe. The problem was not so much Anglo-German rivalry at sea as it was Russo-German rivalry on land. Fear of a Russian arms buildup convinced the German general staff to fight in 1914 rather than risk waiting any longer."

"The third fatal factor was an unstable alliance system. Alliances existed in abundance, but they were shaky."

"The presence of a rogue regime sponsoring terror was a fourth source of instability. The chain of events leading to war, as every schoolchild used to know, began with the assassination of the Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo by a Bosnian Serb, Gavrilo Princip. There were shady links between the assassin's organization and the Serbian government, which had itself come to power not long before in a bloody palace coup."

And finally: "The rise of a revolutionary terrorist organization hostile to capitalism turned an international crisis into a backlash against the global free market. The Bolsheviks, who emerged from the 1903 split in the Russian Social Democratic Party, had already established their credentials as a fanatical organization committed to using violence to bring about world revolution. By straining the tsarist system to the breaking point, the war gave Lenin and his confederates their opportunity."

As the economic parallels with 1914 suggest, we can't dismiss the possibility that we are about to enter an age of de-globalization. And while we are on the topic of historical parallels, let's not forget a quote from Vladimir Lenin, founder of the Russian Communist Party, who said "the best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency."

<SPY GLD EUR/USD GBP/USD USD/JPY USD/CHF AUD/USD NZD/AUD USD/CAD EUR/JPY GBP/JPY CAD/JPY EUR/CHF GBP/CHF>

 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: grim
Date Posted: 04/Apr/2008 at 1:35pm
A forwarded email, its an article on global housing scenario. This is some cos. newsletter. Dont know how accurate it will turn out but its worth a read :-

The property crisis in Britain could have implications far beyond the U.K. shores

Last year, while the U.K. property market was roaring full steam ahead, we did suggest that the situation could not continue on its current path indefinitely and that since based on basic mathematics the U.K. property market was more expensive for first time buyers than even prior to the last market crash in 1990, even taking into account the low interest rates, the market was heading for a sharp correction. Of course, since then we have had a credit crunch and interest rates have risen, despite all the efforts of the Bank of England, bringing forward the anticipated correction in the property market. We did expect that the actions of the Bank will not be too effective since rates were now at the mercy of the markets and beyond the direct control of the central bank. These fears were also sadly proven to be correct. As a result, I believe that the worst is yet to come for the U.K. property market.

Sadly, we are not alone in making such a dire prediction. These days it is very hard to find anyone who believes that the current problems of the U.K. property market are going to be short-lived or even superficial. Despite the so-called huge shortages in housing, prices are coming down in most areas, and even those that are claimed not to have fallen have probably done so already. It is a rare situation that those tasked with determining the price movements of a market are the same institutions that have most to lose from a fall. Expecting mortgage lenders to give objective assessments of price movements in the property market are even less logical than relying on the ratings of rating agencies whose fees are paid by those they rate. The way these lenders suggest that prices are falling is to call it a buyers’ market. It is a much less scary description than saying the property market is in serious trouble.

Should the banks continue to hoard cash, as they have been, rather then lend them at the formerly unrealistically low rates of interest, and to those whose sources of income were highly dubious, then the situation would get significantly more severe, and all signs seem to suggest that the worst case scenario is not too unrealistic anymore.

But, it should not only be the U.K. homeowners who should be worried about a property market correction in Britain. Similar to the implications of a U.S. economic slowdown on the global economy, a slowdown in the U.K. property market could have implications for economies far beyond from the British shores.

The fact of the matter is that the huge price appreciations in the U.K. were not only used to increase consumer spending on luxury goods in the U.K. Many used the unexpected money that they made on their property investments in the U.K. to purchase properties overseas and certain markets, such as Spain, Bulgaria, France, and the UAE were major benefactors.

Spain seems to have been the market that benefited most from property price rises in the U.K. Many British citizens have holiday homes in Spain. The huge demand for second properties in Spain helped fuel an unprecedented market price rise. Of course, the Spanish property market was also helped by similarly bad lending practices of their own local banks. Similar to the U.K. market, the belief that properties have only one way to go meant that banks literally begged people to take out mortgages from them. Well, as we know now, that logic was flawed, and the Spanish property market is about to collapse. The exact percentage of fall is not well publicized, but anyone who is familiar with the market knows that it is in a state of free fall. Considering that the Spanish property market experience is very similar to that of the U.K., there is no reason to expect that British properties will be spared. Given that price rises in the U.K. have been even more acute, the correction might be that much more painful.

Should the speed of house price depreciation increase in the U.K. many will be forced to sell their holiday homes in countries such as Spain, putting further pressure on an already depressed market. The need for quick sales overseas in order to reduce debts at home will certainly make the situation worse.

While those who have made investments in France should be better positioned to ride out the anticipated market correction, as they are usually wealthier, they will not be all spared. Many will also be forced to sell holiday homes in France and push prices down in those areas where British investments are highest. Sadly, while the unrealistic price rises in the U.K. benefited all of her neighbours, a correction will have a similar, but of course opposite, impact. The U.K. was the engine for many major property investments in certain European markets.

I also wish to touch on the UAE, in specific Dubai, since I have some familiarity with this market as well. Dubai is pretty much experiencing what the U.K. and Spain experienced a few years back. Speculators are hungry to invest in properties on the anticipation of the promised 8% to 10% returns from rental incomes, as well as of course double digit price rises. Banks and the finance arms of the construction companies are competing hard to lend to investors. And those who got on the bandwagon early, many of them from Britain, have made huge fortunes.

However, I must admit that I am not sure what economic model is used to justify the anticipated increase in the ex-pat community, but whatever it was based on it will have to be put on the back burner for many years. Many financial institutions that got caught up in the hype and have established offices in Dubai will start questioning the logic of doing so, especially now that many will be forced to make significant cut backs on costs as a result of the credit crunch. There is also no reason to think that rich Arabs prefer to go to Dubai to meet their private bankers than Geneva. As for genuine investment banking, not sure much of that actually takes place here. And, the stock market has had a difficult six months. Unlike Singapore, their neighbours are not Japan and China, but Saudi Arabia and Iran, not exactly the most successful or reliable of economies. Oil prices are high, but that mainly benefits their cousins in Abu Dhabi. They are also prone to the same risks as Spain and France, in that sooner or later many U.K. property investors who followed in the footsteps of their favourite footballers will have to sell their investments in Dubai to pay down the loans on their homes back in Britain, depressing the local market.

There is also little doubt that investors in Dubai will also face the same credit crunch that their peers are facing in Europe. Cost of borrowing will be increased and many speculators will be caught short. The only difference being that knowledge of risk management is even worse among the banks in the UAE. Add to that the highly questionable quality of construction, and Dubai is a crisis waiting to happen. So, remember where you read it first. And when the problems hit, similar to Madrid, many construction companies will not even have the money to bring down the scaffoldings. As they say, when the U.S. sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. In the case of investment properties, the same logic holds for the U.K. Many countries have benefited from an unprecedented property market in the U.K. and the willingness of U.K. investors to invest in overseas properties. As that market is correcting itself, so will many other countries that have come to rely on it.




Posted By: magma
Date Posted: 28/Jul/2008 at 4:56pm
Thank you so much for sharing such a wonderful stuff with us:)

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Stop ForeClosure
http://www.stopforeclosuredesk.com/


Posted By: Brittany
Date Posted: 28/Jul/2008 at 8:56pm
I can only agree with Magma. 

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The world is a book and those who don't travel read only a page.


Posted By: nav_1996
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 5:57pm
A forwarded email
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Why the Dollar Bubble is about to Burst?



          IRAN HAS REALLY DONE IT...more deadlier than the nuclear..

          

          The Voice (issue 264 -) ran an article beginning, ' Iran has really gone and done it now. No, they haven't sent their first nuclear sub in to the Persian Gulf . They are about to launch something much more deadly -- next week the Iran Bourse will open to trade oil, not in dollars but in Euros' This apparently insignificant event has consequences far greater for the US people, indeed all for us all, than is imaginable.

          

          Currently almost all oil buying and selling is in US-dollars through exchanges in London and New York .. It is not accidental they are both US-owned.

          

          The Wall Street crash in 1929 sparked off global depression and World War II. During that war the US supplied provisions and ammunitions to all its allies, refusing currency and demanding gold payments in exchange.

          

          By 1945, 80% of the world's gold was sitting in US vaults. The dollar became the one undisputed global reserve currency -- it was treated world-wide as `safer than gold'. The Bretton Woods agreement was established.

          

          The US took full advantage over the next decades and printed dollars like there was no tomorrow. The US exported many mountains of dollars, paying for ever-increasing amounts of commodities, tax cuts for the rich, many wars abroad, mercenaries, spies and politicians the world over. You see, this did not affect inflation at home! The US got it all for free! Well, maybe for a forest or two.

          

          Over subsequent decades the world's vaults bulged at the seams and more and more vaults were built, just for US dollars. Each year, the US spends many more dollars abroad that at home. Analysts pretty much agree that outside the US , of the savings, or reserves, of all other countries, in gold and all currencies -- that a massive 66% of this total wealth is in US dollars!

          

          In 1971 several countries simultaneously tried to sell a small portion of their dollars to the US for gold. Krassimir Petrov, (Ph. D. in Economics at Ohio University ) recently wrote, 'The US Government defaulted on its payment on August 15, 1971 . While popular spin told the story of `severing the link between the dollar and gold', in reality the denial to pay back in gold was an act of bankruptcy by the US Government.' The 1945 Breton Woods agreement was unilaterally smashed.

          

          The dollar and US economy were on a precipice resembling Germany in 1929.

          The US now had to find a way for the rest of the world to believe and have faith in the paper dollar. The solution was in oil, in the petrodollar. The US viciously bullied first Saudi Arabia and then OPEC to sell oil for dollars only -- it worked, the dollar was saved. Now countries had to keep dollars to buy much needed oil. And the US could buy oil all over the world, free of charge. What a Houdini for the US ! Oil replaced gold as the new foundation to stop the paper dollar sinking.

          

          Since 1971, the US printed even more mountains of dollars to spend abroad.

          The trade deficit grew and grew. The US sucked-in much of the world's products for next to nothing. More vaults were built.

          

          Expert, Cóilínn Nunan, wrote in 2003, 'The dollar is the de facto world reserve currency: the US currency accounts for approximately two thirds of all official exchange reserves. More than four-fifths of all foreign exchange transactions and half of all world exports are denominated in dollars. In addition, all IMF loans are denominated in dollars.'



          Dr Bulent Gukay of   Keele University recently wrote, 'This system of the US dollar acting as global reserve currency in oil trade keeps the demand for the dollar `artificially' high. This enables the US to carry out printing dollars at the price of next to nothing to fund increased military spending and consumer spending on imports. There is no theoretical limit to the amount of dollars that can be printed. As long as the US has no serious challengers, and the other states have confidence in the US dollar, the system functions.'

          

          Until recently, the US-dollar has been safe. However, since 1990 Western Europe has been busy growing, swallowing up central and Eastern Europe ..



          French and German bosses were jealous of the US ability to buy goods and people the world over for nothing. They wanted a slice of the free cake too.



          Further, they now had the power and established the euro in late 1999 against massive US-inspired opposition across Europe , especially from Britain - paid for in dollars of course. But the euro succeeded.

          

          Only months after the euro-launch, Saddam's Iraq announced it was switching from selling oil in dollars only, to euros only -- breaking the OPEC agreement.. Iran , Russia , Venezuela , Libya , all began talking openly of switching too -- were the floodgates about to be opened?

          

          Then aero planes flew into the twin-towers in September 2001. Was this another Houdini chance to save the US (petro) dollar and the biggest financial/economic crash in history? War preparations began in the US But first war-fever had to be created -- and truth was the first casualty. Other oil producing countries watched-on. In 2000 Iraq began selling oil in euros. In 2002, Iraq changed all their petro-dollars in their vaults into euros. A few months later, the US began their invasion of Iraq ...

          

          The whole world was watching: very few aware that the US was engaging in the first oil currency, or petro-dollar war. After the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, remember, the US secured oil areas first. Their first sales in August were, of course, in dollars, again. The only government building in Baghdad not bombed was the Oil Ministry! It does not matter how many people are murdered -- for the US , the petro-dollar must be saved as the only way to buy and sell oil - otherwise the US economy will crash, and much more besides.

          

          In early 2003, Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela talked openly of selling half of its oil in euros (the other half is bought by the US ). On 12 April 2003, the US-supported business leaders and some generals in Venezuela kidnapped Chavez and attempted a coup. The masses rose against this and the Army followed suit. The coup failed. This was bad for the US ...

          

          In November 2000 the euro/dollar was at $0.82 dollars, its lowest ever, and still diving, but when Iraq started selling oil in euros, the euro dive was halted. In April 2002 senior OPEC reps talked about trading in euros and the euro shot up. In June 2003 the US occupiers of Iraq switched trading back to dollars and the euro fell against the dollar again. In August 2003 Iran starts to sell oil in euros to some European countries and the euro rises sharply. In the winter of 2003-4 Russian and OPEC politicians talked seriously of switching oil/gas sales to the euro and the euro rose. In February 2004 OPEC met and made no decision to turn to the euro -- and yes, the euro fell against the dollar. In June 2004 Iran announced it would build an oil bourse to rival London and New York , and again, the euro rose. The euro stands at $1.27 and has been climbing of late.

          

          But matters this month became far, far worse for the US dollar. On 5th May Iran registered its own Oil Bourse, the IOB. Not only are they now selling oil in euros from abroad -- they have established an actual Oil Bourse, a global trading centre for all countries to buy and sell their oil!

          

          In Chavez's recent visit to London ; he talked openly about supporting the Iranian Oil Bourse, and selling oil in euros. When asked in London about the new arms embargo imposed by the US against Venezuela , Chavez prophetically dismissed the US as 'a paper tiger'.

          

          Currently, almost all the world's oil is sold on either the NYMEX, New York Mercantile Exchange, or the IPE, London's International Petroleum Exchange. Both are owned by US citizens and both sell and buy only in US dollars. The success of the Iran Oil Bourse makes sense to Europe , which buys 70% of Iran 's oil. It makes sense for Russia , which sells 66% of its oil to Europe ... But worse for the US , China and India have already stated they are very interested in the new Iranian Oil Bourse.

          

          If there is a tactical-nuclear strike on - deja-vu - `weapons of mass destruction' in Iran , who would bet against a certain Oil Exchange and more, being bombed too?

          

          And worse for Bush. It makes sense for Europe , China , India and Japan-- as well as all the other countries mentioned above -- to buy and sell oil in Euro's. They will certainly have to stock-up on euros now, and they will sell dollars to do so. The euro is far more stable than the debt-ridden dollar. The IMF has recently highlighted US economic difficulties and the trade deficit strangling the US-- there is no way out.

          

          The problem for so many countries now is how to get rid of their vaults full of dollars, before it crashes? And the US has bullied so many countries for so many decades around the world, that many will see a chance to kick the bully back. The US cannot accept even 5% of the world's dollars -- it would crash the US economy dragging much of the world with it, especially Britain ...

          

          To survive, as the Scottish Socialist Voice article stated, 'the US , needs to generate a trade surplus to get out of this one. Problem is it can't.' This is spot on. To do that they must force US workers into near slavery, to get paid less than Chinese or Indian workers. We all know that this will not happen.

          

          What will happen in the US ? Chaos for sure. Maybe a workers revolution, but looking at the situation as it is now, it is more likely to be a re-run of Germany post-1929, and some form of extreme-right mass movement will emerge...

          

          Does Europe and China/Asia have the economic independence and strength to stop the whole world's economies collapsing with the US ? Their vaults are full to the brim with dollars.

          

          The US has to find a way to pay for its dollar-imperialist exploitation of the world since 1945.. Somehow, eventually, it has to account for every dollar in every vault in the world.

          

          Bombing Iran could backfire tremendously. It would bring Iran openly into the war in Iraq , behind the Shiite majority. The US cannot cope even now with the much smaller Iraqi insurgency. Perhaps the US will feed into the Sunni v Shiite conflict and turn it into a wider Middle-East civil-war.



          However, this is so dangerous for global oil supplies. Further, they know that this would be temporary, as some country somewhere else, will establish a euro-oil-exchange, perhaps in Brussels ..

          

          There is one `solution' -- scrap the dollar and print a whole new currency for the US .. This will destroy 66% of the rest of the world's savings/reserves in one swoop. Imagine the implications? Such are the desperate things now swimming around heads in the White House, Wall Street and Pentagon.

          

          Another is to do as Germany did, just before invading Poland in 1938. The Nazis filmed a mock Polish Army attack on Germany , to win hearts and minds at home. But again, this is a finger in the dam. So, how is the US going to escape this time? The only global arena of total superiority left is military. Who knows what horrors lie ahead. A new world war is one tool by which the US could discipline its `allies' into keeping the dollar in their vaults.

          

          The task of socialists today is to explain to as many as possible, especially our class, that the coming crisis belongs purely to capitalism and (dollar) imperialism. Not people of other cultures, not Islam, not the axis of evil or their so-called WMDs. Their system alone is to blame.

          

          The new Iranian Oil Bourse, the IOB, is situated in a new building on the free-trade-zone island of Kish , in the Persian Gulf .. It's computers and software are all set to go. The IOB was supposed to be up and running last March, but many pressures forced a postponement. Where the pressure came from is obvious. It was internationally registered on 5th May and supposed to open mid-May, but its opening was put off, some saying the oil-mafia was involved, along with much international pressure. .............................



          In 2007 Crude was trades around 60 usd. Everyone know dollar was getting weaker and weaker day by day. Than US with the help of their two NYMEX & IPE exchange started rising the price of crude by Future trading on crude( called speculation). Today crude is around 140 usd. It means whole world who were paying 60 usd, now paying 140 usd, means demand of dollar increase to 230% and dollar start again rising.



          Even OPEC recently that in hike of crude, 60% contribution is due to speculation (Future market).



          Moral of story is USA has & will go to destroy any nation to keep its monopoly of dollar in world.


Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 6:27pm
What an article!!!

One thing for sure. The Americans quote something in public for any of their actions but their actual intensions are different and selfish. No second thoughts about that. They will pay for that sure.

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TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 8:24pm

Article similar to this I read  before the launch of Euro. Not understand the implication at that time. But just realise from that article that whenever there will be a competitor of USD, US economy will collapsed. That's what is happening.



Posted By: WallSt
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 10:54pm
Like AIG was  too big to fail, same way US economy is too big to fail, its good for world to have healthy US economy, Few Gulf and south American country leaders are not elected by democratic governments. So they don't care about their extreme steps.  Speaking of Europe, its tiny and most US friendly region, so if US pull plug their economy will collapse in matter of days. See how US gave large contract to Air bus and then revised and gave (giving) back to Boeing.

I know it is most selfish country in world, but remember world need US more than US need world. That's the fact. 


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 12:22pm
well i think it is time for coutries like India to rise ...why are we so dependent on US so much ....it should be zero sum game ...but i guess uncle sam is  the big bully and can do anything ....for the time being commodities and equities are going in the same direction which is up ...we are in one crazy time


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 1:50am
During 1990 USSR collapsed due to their extreme close door & anti capitalism policies. Now its turn of USA to collapsed due to their extreme open door (Deregulated) & extreme capitalist policies.
 
Best is lies in between. I think China & India are the best example as on date. The day we inclined on any of this side we may also invite trouble for ourselves.


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 2:10am
One thing is clear that, financial markets should be regulated for smooth functioning of the economy. I hope, RBI keep continuing the tradition.

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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: bassein
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2008 at 9:09am
Some of the posts in this thread have highlighted the "evils" of America.

Perhaps our government should do the best thing and call our boys and girls home from that country because not a day passes in which some PIO (person of Indian origin) is given credit for some advancement in that country or becomes Governor, etc., etc, over  there, thus contributing to that country's prosperity and ability to oppress the rest of the world.


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 26/Sep/2008 at 12:03pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/US_set_to_lose_financial_S-power_status/articleshow/3529956.cms -
US set to lose financial S-power status
 


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 27/Sep/2008 at 9:31am
US auto makers GM and Ford will also ask for bailout package soon. US might need to bail out other sectors not only financials. 

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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 27/Sep/2008 at 10:57am
Originally posted by kanagala

US auto makers GM and Ford will also ask for bailout package soon. US might need to bail out other sectors not only financials. 
 
If the intensity of Bailout Packages increased at this rate few months down the line Federal Reserve might required Bailout package from Asian & European central banks.
 
In simple word US is up for sell.


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 27/Sep/2008 at 11:38am

The Coming 'Lost Decade' in America?By Dr. Steve Sjuggerud

          Historically, when the government meddles in the markets, things don't turn out well...

          The most recent example is Japan in the 1990s, and that ended with the "Lost Decade." Here's what happened:

               Japan had a huge real estate bubble.Banks overlent on a massive scale, making risky loans that were almost doomed from the start.The stock market and the real estate market started to fall. To save the economy, the Japanese Central Bank took extraordinary measures... lowering interest rates to unprecedented levels. But it wasn't enough. Once the crisis was in full swing, the troubled banks hoarded cash instead of
               lending money. The economy gummed up. Asset prices went down. And people froze... They wouldn't invest in stocks or real estate.

          Sound familiar?

          The next steps sound familiar, too...
 
          Instead of allowing bad banks to fail... instead of allowing the system to "clear"... the government pumped in cash to prop them up. The result was hundreds  of  banks and  businesses existing in a sort of purgatory... neither private nor public... neither alive   nor dead... They were known as "zombies."

          The result? Japan's Lost Decade. Real estate prices plummeted. Japan's main stock  index, the Nikkei, dropped from a peak near 40,000 to a low of about 7,500 in 2003.
          Japan's government, of course, was trying to help.
          It's easy to say, "Let 'em fail." But when you're in the thick of things... when it comes right down to it... it's hard to do. When the public is pleading for government to "do something," then government feels compelled to, well, do something. In hindsight, most analysts agree that if the Japanese government had simply gotten out of the way and let the bad banks and businesses fail, the country wouldn't have experienced the Lost Decade of the 1990s...

          And the Lost Decade has basically morphed into the Lost Two Decades these days. Japanese residential real estate prices have fallen every year since the peak in 1990.  And the Nikkei is still down 70% today ; nearly 19 years later.

          Like the Japanese government did in 1990, today, for better or worse, the U.S.government feels compelled to do something. In the short run, things might actually be better...

          Whatever lawmakers do today will prop up the system for now. They'll save countless  businesses that rely on lines of credit to function, and therefore save many jobs on  "Main Street."

          But then things will likely get worse...

          We may dodge a major crisis... only to enter a "zombie" stage. This includes more  regulation, lower returns on capital, and uncertainty about who's running what. We could end up with "zombie" financial institutions, companies that are not private but   not exactly public either... owning mortgage bonds of uncertain value.

In other words, like Japan's Lost Decade.

          It might be better for the government to do nothing and let businesses fail. But "do something" is the cry. And something is what's happening. So let's hope lawmakers do as much as can be done at this moment... which will then  allow government to get out of the way as soon as possible.

          Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke is a student of the  Depression. If he has any say, he won't let the   mistakes of the Depression (or Japan's Lost
          Decade) happen here. If the government's got to  do something, his plan, undoubtedly, will be to flood the system with dollars until the gears start
          turning again.

          If that's the plan, then holding at least some gold ; the "anti-dollar" ; is  probably something worth doing...



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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 28/Sep/2008 at 12:04pm
This article illustrates effect of credit crunch.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26905165 - http://www.cnbc.com/id/26905165


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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 28/Sep/2008 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by kanagala

US auto makers GM and Ford will also ask for bailout package soon. US might need to bail out other sectors not only financials.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26915639 - Congress Approves $25 Billion in Loans to U.S. Auto Makers

Heard in the corridors of Senate between elected representatives:

Check with other industries whether they want any help/support from us?? We are off for two months holidays. Let them not disturb us during that time?

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TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO


Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 28/Sep/2008 at 10:59am
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122262725903283485.html - Financial Troubles Humble U.S

What a pity!!!!

Things does not seem to be over with the bail out package. Question is "WHERE IS THE MONEY TO FUND IT"?

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TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO


Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 28/Sep/2008 at 11:30am
The US is a fantasticaly Rich nation .This down turn is itself caused by the policy of financial inclusion that is practised in the US.The politicians have mandated a system of Tax rebates and help for home finance.This led to each person who wasnt even in the reconing to take a house this fueled by the greed of east coast graduates in the look out for incentives took the form of the sub prime crisis.
The financial system devised by these wall st invest. bankers was complex and in the laseez fair economic system that is in place in the US was not looked into.Had the banks been more prudent this wouldnt have hapened.But the Govt bailout is not for the Investment Banks but it is to stall any further slowdown by the lack of demand which might prove to be deat kneel to not only US but majorly China and all the commodity exporters to China.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 07/Oct/2008 at 8:41am
The new US national flag........














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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 07/Oct/2008 at 11:32am
Our only hope is king henry producing some miracle to save the world. 

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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 12:45pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/International_Business/Warren_Buffett_next_Treasury_chief/articleshow/3572138.cms -
Candidates eye Warren Buffett as possible Treasury chief


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 12:51pm
If that happens, economies will further slow down as he would not allow excessive institutional stupidity (read: leveraged derivatives) that might force many investment bankers out of job.

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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 12:55pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/International_Business/Economic_911_exacting_grim_psychological_toll_in_US/articleshow/3572068.cms -
'Economic 9/11' exacting grim psychological toll in US


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 1:14pm
Some humour for tough times:

A fun email circulating trading desks, worthwhile as an informal measure of sentiment:

CEO --Chief Embezzlement Officer.

CFO-- Corporate Fraud Officer.

BULL MARKET -- A random market movement causing an investor to mistake himself for a financial genius.

BEAR MARKET -- A 6 to 18 month period when the kids get no allowance, the wife gets no jewelry, and the husband gets no sex.

VALUE INVESTING -- The art of buying low and selling lower.

P/E RATIO -- The percentage of investors wetting their pants as the market keeps crashing.

BROKER -- What my broker has made me.

STANDARD & POOR -- Your life in a nutshell.

STOCK ANALYST -- Idiot who just downgraded your stock.

STOCK SPLIT -- When your ex-wife and her lawyer split your assets equally between themselves.

FINANCIAL PLANNER -- A guy whose phone has been disconnected.

MARKET CORRECTION -- The day after you buy stocks.

CASH FLOW -- The movement your money makes as it disappears down the toilet.

YAHOO -- What you yell after selling it to some poor sucker for $240 per share.

WINDOWS -- What you jump out of when you're the sucker who bought Yahoo @ $240 per share.

INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR -- Past year investor who's now locked up in a nuthouse.

PROFIT -- An archaic word no longer in use

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"Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security."


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 9:38pm
Look at these shameless AIG executives.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081007/meltdown_aig.html - http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081007/meltdown_aig.html

Does any one have idea about these senate hearings. Is it like a court ? Do we have anything similar in India.


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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

I think it tantamounts to paying out of capital. I think, this should be legally disallowed.
 
A better thing will be to liquidate assets, repay liabilities and distribute anything left, if at all you want to pay the shareholders. Whats going on in US is totally beyond my idea of corporate governance.
 


Haha.. If they follow this approach, they will all become LEH. Frankly speaking, if one were to take a logical accounting approach, none of the banks are solvent.

Maybe...just Maybe HSBC is the only solvent bank out there.


Posted By: siddharth
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 3:06am
There are some banks which have escaped this turmoil and are expected to emerge stronger, for instance Wells Fargo & Santander. Its no surprise that Buffet owns 10% of WFC


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Mr. V

Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

I think it tantamounts to paying out of capital. I think, this should be legally disallowed.
 
A better thing will be to liquidate assets, repay liabilities and distribute anything left, if at all you want to pay the shareholders. Whats going on in US is totally beyond my idea of corporate governance.
 


Haha.. If they follow this approach, they will all become LEH. Frankly speaking, if one were to take a logical accounting approach, none of the banks are solvent.

Maybe...just Maybe HSBC is the only solvent bank out there.
 
All I can say is that America has lost all right to act as a champion for free markets. Now, I think everyone has got the right to do anything they feel like. I think when Thailand banned/restricted capital exits by foreigners, Americans where jumping up and down....now why did they stop short selling. A country which was a champion of the cause that if the world has to come down, let it be, has behaved like a sheep when faced with similar circumstances.
 
In all this uncertainty, if I can see anything uncertain, is that America is gone forever. I would be extremely glad, if India gets Uranium from there and launch a test to make fun of the restrictions imposed by them.
 
 


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Jai Guru!!!


Posted By: gcpradhan1
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2008 at 7:56pm
Here is another example how big the current crisis is in Europe !

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aiz5QIq94nrw&refer=europe


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Only buy something that you'd be perfectly happy to hold if the market shut down for 10 years - Buffet


Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2008 at 7:53am
Kya http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/91357/Roubini-Rate-Cuts-Reduce-Crash-Risk-But-Dow-7000-Likely-Sometime-Next-Year?tickers=%5EDJI,%5EGSPC,%5EIXIC,SPX,DIA - yeh aadmi Shankar Sharma ka bhai hai?


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2008 at 8:16am
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iWXmtw4Wutli6IP-0-yTYa4eS1ZwD93MM0UG0 -
NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits


Posted By: rakeshmehta48
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 2:15pm
In US next sector in serious trouble looks to be Retail sector.
We may see lot of bankrupties in Retail sector during next 6-12 months.
 
PS: Repeat that these views are for US Retail sector. I don't have much idea about Indian Retailers.(Though they may also be affected) 


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Fund Management is Most Important


Posted By: master
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 8:48pm
Cost of US http://www.mumbaimirror.com/net/mmpaper.aspx?page=article&sectid=5&contentid=2008101020081010034600235a58edec1 - crisis
 
It is interesting to note that -
 
A replacement for the clock with two additional digits that would be able to account for up to a quadrillion dollars of debt is expected only by the next year.


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Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago.


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 9:55pm
No he's not. He's a respected professor at Stern school in New York. And you ignore him at your own risk!

By the way, Shankar Sharma doesn't sound so stupid anymore, does he? Lets all live and learn rather than try and pick holes in others.

Originally posted by rapidriser

Kya http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/91357/Roubini-Rate-Cuts-Reduce-Crash-Risk-But-Dow-7000-Likely-Sometime-Next-Year?tickers=%5EDJI,%5EGSPC,%5EIXIC,SPX,DIA - yeh aadmi Shankar Sharma ka bhai hai?
And you ignore him at your own risk!

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"Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security."


Posted By: ndzapak
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 9:59pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/View_Point/Panicking_like_1907_in_2008/articleshow/3564041.cms - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/View_Point/Panicking_like_1907_in_2008/articleshow/3564041.cms
Interesting article, different comparison in history.

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the Equitydesk is the best


Posted By: WallSt
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 9:59pm

We are down, 451, I cant believe DJ went below 8k,

 
great great time to buy blue chip like GE- Goldman, JNJ, wish had more money...


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 7:53am
The Dow Jones was swinging back and forth as RNRL used to do in 2007 or HFCL in the late 90's.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 8:52am
Originally posted by basant

The Dow Jones was swinging back and forth as RNRL used to do in 2007 or HFCL in the late 90's.
Are you predicting that the DOW will suffer the same fate as these two?


Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 10:29am
Warren Buffett's Reassuring Words On the Future

As the stock market' movements have average Americans worried about their financial futures and looking for leadership, it's important to keep Warren Buffett's reassuring words about the long-run in mind.

Here's what he said http://www.cnbc.com/id/26869518/?page=2 - live on CNBC :

"You know, five years from now, ten years from now, we'll look back on this period and we'll see that you could have made some extraordinary (stock market) buys. That doesn't mean it won't get more extraordinary a week or a month from now. I have no idea what the stock market is going to do next month or six months from now. I do know that the American economy, over a period of time, will do very well, and people who own a piece of it will do well."

Just don't borrow money to buy your piece.




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The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience.
The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience!


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by investor

Warren Buffett's Reassuring Words On the Future

As the stock market' movements have average Americans worried about their financial futures and looking for leadership, it's important to keep Warren Buffett's reassuring words about the long-run in mind.

Here's what he said http://www.cnbc.com/id/26869518/?page=2 - live on CNBC :

"You know, five years from now, ten years from now, we'll look back on this period and we'll see that you could have made some extraordinary (stock market) buys. That doesn't mean it won't get more extraordinary a week or a month from now. I have no idea what the stock market is going to do next month or six months from now. I do know that the American economy, over a period of time, will do very well, and people who own a piece of it will do well."

Just don't borrow money to buy your piece.




The same can be said of Indian economy/markets too on a LONG-TERM basis. The most important message is however: Just don't borrow money to buy your piece.




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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: smart_prof
Date Posted: 11/Oct/2008 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by basant

The Dow Jones was swinging back and forth as RNRL used to do in 2007 or HFCL in the late 90's.


Warren buffets words are as REalistic as any thing else !!!!!!!!!!! Trying to put max money to work ....


Posted By: smart_prof
Date Posted: 11/Oct/2008 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by smart_prof

Originally posted by basant

The Dow Jones was swinging back and forth as RNRL used to do in 2007 or HFCL in the late 90's.


Warren buffets words are as REalistic as any thing else !!!!!!!!!!! Trying to put max money to work ....


One must look at the final value at which one wl sell his investmenr=ts over a period of time not in Between ....Am i right !!!!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 11/Oct/2008 at 2:43am
Originally posted by kulman



 Just don't borrow money to buy your piece.



Does this mean that if one is in the Lending Business, one will come out ahead ? (If the above is true , the opposite should also be true?)




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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.



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