How long is the "Long Term"?
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Printed Date: 07/May/2025 at 4:36pm
Topic: How long is the "Long Term"?
Posted By: basant
Subject: How long is the "Long Term"?
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:34pm
The caption of this article has been titled for the average investor who in his quest for financial freedom allocates maximum amount to equities so that he makes enough for Monday mornings to feel as good as Friday evenings. It is true that equities outperform all asset classes over a period of time but not all the time. To outperform all asset classes an investor has to be invested in a bunch of stocks that are in demand during that time. This seems cruel to the bottoms up, diversified value investor who will provide you with several reasons for his stock picks and a few ones to justify his patience. However the ultimate index of an investor’s intellect is the returns that he generates and not the arguments that he provides. In this context an investor who has been able to align himself with the flavor of the season while looking at turning points with a curiously open mind has a definite probability of outperforming all asset classes compared to another investor who is betting on a diversified group of stocks (Sensex) in a bottoms up approach. Strange as it may sound the average investor who has followed a broad-based strategy of investing without any investment thesis has lost more than he thought even while the Sensex has returned 16.7% since inception.
Instead of solely blaming the investor one should look at the overall character of the Indian market (in terms of investor choices). Seventy five percent of the stocks listed in India are not fit for long term investing either in terms of management or business character or in many cases both. Most manufacturers including Textiles, Cement, Power, Shipping, Metals, Infrastructure, Capital goods, Oil and Gas, State owned units (PSUs) do well for a couple of years and than fizzle out thus doing what equities are not supposed to do - reward the short term punter and penalize the long term investor.
Over a 20 year period many of the sectors mentioned above have under-performed Bank FDs. The problem gets compounded if you have an investor who has been programmed to enter the markets when he feels optimistic about the environment (bull phase) and ignore it when he feels pessimistic about the same (bearish phase) but as stocks are supposed to do well over a long term period I ask myself a question "How long is the long term?".
Long term is infinite in case of stocks that do not outperform other stocks and asset classes and a few years in case of stocks that do. There is no standardized definition of a long term. A standard thought that most market participants use is that “in the long term equities outperform all asset classes” and to prove their point they talk of a 200 year cycle but the audience who is already in their 30's have just 10% (20 years) of time left to become rich. That 200 year chart is of little use for market participants except that it helps to show the historical intellect of the speaker. A study on how many times equities have NOT outperformed all asset classes within a Ten and Twenty year period throws surprising results.
Over the past ten years Indian equities have under-performed Gold! A decade back Gold was at US$ 310/ounce whereas the Sensex was at 3355. Today Gold is up more than five times in Dollar terms and more in rupee terms (due to rupee depreciation) and has outperformed the Sensex over a 10 year period (2002-12).
Let's rewind back into the earlier decade (1992 - 2002) where the Sensex did nothing. Iin this time span Bank FDs beat the Sensex hands down. For 20 years (1992 - 2012) the Sensex has returned a CAGR of only 7% which is lower than FDs. If this is not long term what is?
From 15th May 1982 Sensex has returned a CAGR of 15.25% which has beaten all asset classes but the coupon on Bonds for the first 20 years of this time span was close to 15% so the risk premium hasn't been high. "Thirty years" is the elusive long term that a person wishing to buy a diversified set of businesses (Sensex) has to wait if he wants to beat all asset classes. Say this to an investor the next time he wants to put some money in a stock!
However in these 30 years there have been extraordinary bouts of money making with multiple stocks turning out 100 baggers. From Colgate, HUL, ITC,Nestle, Hero Motors, Sun Pharma, ACC, Tata Steel, Infosys, Zee TV, Wipro, HDFC twins, Bharti, Pantaloon, Unitech, Titan, Page Industries, Jubilant Foodworks, TTK, Hawkins etc focused investors trying to bet on a few sectors and stocks have made money like bandits through short bursts of a 3-5 years of holding. This data emphasizes that it has always been a stock picker's market instead of being a broad-based investment game for anyone wishing to make money.
Surprisingly most of these stocks (good businesses) appeared very expensive for the entire length of their bull run. One of the classic traits of a leading bull market stock is that it has to appear expensive to the "naked" eye.
Most investors that I come across keep buying some stock from all the sectors in a bid to outperform the market. Many greedy investors focus exclusively on the absolute small caps which they hope would become the large caps of tomorrow. More than 75% of the small caps remain small caps and never graduate to the next big league but strangely an investor who was happy with a 9% interest in his Bank FD undergoes an expectation upswing and wants nothing short of a multibagger the moment he enters the market. No wonder most people give back to the market more than they take away from it. Without necessary expertise and skill it makes zero sense to be in stocks. If you do not understand the game very well a Bank FD is a lot better!
Think about this the next time you call your Broker.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Replies:
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:59pm
Awesome article Basant Sir...very sobering too.All this time spent on stocks might come to nought. 
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Posted By: Monkey
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:59pm
Basantji, Nice article, as usual!! For a broad portfolio, long term returns are linked with valuation at the begining of period under consideration. 20 years period from 1992 to 2012 does not look good, only because broad valuations at the begining of this period were quite high due to Harshad Mehta led mania. However, returns for the 10 year period from 2002 to 2012 and 30 year period from 1982 to 2012 look good because of not so demending starting valuation. Therefore, an investor who just wants to capture equity risk premium either by indexing or by investing in diversified funds need to be mindful of valuations.
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Posted By: S.Varghese
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:04pm
Extremely well written article Basantji. A person very close to me lost about 11 L a few months back in IVRCL futures. For some reason some of my dividend checks used to go to his address. He used to tell my wife that Sincy's dividends are from small companies - Hawkins, Karur Vysya Bank, etc.
After losing the 11L he said he should have been in Hawkins, because he had deposited a number of my dividend checks in the bank.
Equities and for that matter any investment vehicle are for the informed - or those who have an informed guide like Basant Maheshwari!
------------- Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
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Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:08pm
Nice article. This is what Warren Buffett said: Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing.
------------- If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett
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Posted By: nagpal
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:14pm
Great Article .Keep posting Lot of them.Cheers
------------- Be a Owner,Not a Loaner
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Posted By: FutureBull
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:24pm
Thanks Basantji, for the timely reminder. Should we take the signal that stocks would be very lacklustre for times to come? We are already seeing stagflation which would be bad for equities. Folks having stock market experience during the period '95-00 should share it. I have learnt it hard way by giving tuition fees in all different ways.
------------- ‘The market always does what it’s supposed to — BUT NEVER WHEN’.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by subu76
Awesome article Basant Sir...very sobering too. |
It indeed is when I look at several people who come into markets to make enough so that they do not have to go back to work and in that process lose all that they have saved.
Originally posted by Monkey
For a broad portfolio, long term returns are linked with valuation at the begining of period under consideration. 20 years period from 1992 to 2012 does not look good, only because broad valuations at the begining of this period were quite high due to Harshad Mehta led mania. However, returns for the 10 year period from 2002 to 2012 and 30 year period from 1982 to 2012 look good because of not so demending starting valuation. |
To a large extent yes, but 20 years is a lot of time for things to adjust basically its the character of the market that is an issue, even from 1990 (2 years before HM) we have done 13.5% CAGR which is not too much when compared to the interest rates of those days.
Originally posted by S.Varghese
Equities and for that matter any investment vehicle are for the informed - or those who have an informed guide like Basant Maheshwari! |
Thank you Sir. Words like these overwhelm me.
Originally posted by FutureBull
Should we take the signal that stocks would be very lacklustre for times to come? |
As you know we are all incompetent in making those predictions but personally I will not venture out to preempt a recovery unless the recovery actually happens.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: aanambi
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:52pm
hi basant,
nice article. Dow Jones was in 1000 range from 1966 to 1981(15 yrs) yet warren buffet made money.asset allocation across various sectors (fd,real estate,rental income,gold, annuity and equity) is must for avg investors.
------------- “An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis, promises safety
of principal and an adequate return.”
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 12:01pm
Great article!
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Posted By: nikrod12
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 12:08pm
Great article Basantji . Do you know investors of 95-2000 era who rode tech bull market and even after crash managed to make decent money? Would like to know about their side of stories. I know lot of TEDies rode 2003-07 bull market and managed to keep money post crash till date  .
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Posted By: Monkey
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 12:10pm
Basantji, I agree that 20 years is far too long a period to underperform. However, today's valuations are not rich. Considering March '13 EPS estimate of 1230-1250 for sensex and assuming sensex at 15000 or below by that time, sensex P/E would be about 12 or less. P/E of 12 is the valuation where bottoms are made historically. So, we are not that far from bottom, time wise and value wise, for sensex. So, time to make very good long term returns even by indexing is just around the corner. On a side note, I had a different thought. An out & out equity investor is writing this article, which (even though very factual and well thought out) talks rather sadly about equity investing!! Is this not somewhat similar to that famous title on the cover of Business week - "Death of equities"?
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Monkey
On a side note, I had a different thought. An out & out equity investor is writing this article, which (even though very factual and well thought out) talks rather sadly about equity investing!! Is this not somewhat similar to that famous title on the cover of Business week - "Death of equities"?
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 . Maybe, who knows?
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: manish_okhade
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 12:36pm
Basant Saab,
Splendid article but it shatters by beleif of value investing. Your article rejected all the theories value investors are proponding.
Are you suggesting in plain english to buy what is in favour ignoring the valuation and win the game or i am missing something here? If that so then how one can be out before the trend reverses?
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 1:07am
Basant Sir mentioned ....Most small caps continue being small: Three such companies are Balaji Telefilms, Nucleus Software and Sasken which flattered to deceive investors all the time. Basant Sir talked about cyclical price fluctuation which will kill long term investors vs secular growth. WB invests in long term secular growth only which by definition implies the stock will hit higher highs. The IBM investment was made when the company was at a record high market cap As Basant Sir says..it's easier to argue than to rake up high returns.
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Posted By: patientbull
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 1:40am
Hi Bsanatji,
Many thanks for another insightful article.
I am just a starter and have learned a lot from this blog.
1) currently dividend yield from the sensex is 1.82%. if someone has
invested in index fund in 92 then his current yield on initial investment at 3000 would be 9.8%. if we presume that dividend yield was
0 in 92(due to very high PE of index), his average dividend yield
over 20 years would be around 4.9%. if we add this to 7% of capital
gain then total return would 11.9% tax free which still beats FD -
and that too investing at worse time one can imagine at hightest
PE of sensex ever. is this right calculation?
2) investing in cyclical midcaps with reasonable management: just
looking back if someone has bought Greaves cotton in 2002 at price of 0.86 his money would have been x150 today. similarly SAIL was also
available in xpaisa/share at some time. I think this is a trap for
novice(like me) who if tries to replicate this could loose 100%. I wonder if anyone could time this cycle and actually gain return mentioned above.
I would be grateful Basantji if you can please throw light on above.
Warm regards,
Ashok
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Posted By: aniljain
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 1:45am
awesome article
------------- Investment is an art, not science
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Posted By: excel_monkey
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 1:58am
Bahut sare budding warren buffets ka dil toD diya
One of the reasons for lower returns especially in India is corruption
Everything is eaten by the promoters
Very little is left for the shareholders
The returns would have been lot better if we had proper governance in our country
------------- I have a vested interest in the stocks I discuss, therefore I would request you to kindly consider my comments with a pinch of salt and do your own due diligence
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Posted By: balak2
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 4:53am
Good article, makes an interesting reading.
We always hear about cases where equities have outperformed other asset classes but no one has really come up with any indicative numbers of the success rates of the investors across various asset classes.
I am certain that the success rates of investors will be comparatively lower than other asset classes.
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Posted By: amol.karale
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 6:29am
Good article..! Important to know what to expect from Mr. Market.
------------- Amol
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 7:36am
Nice perspective Basantji.
Another asset class is Real Estate. People have made bunch of money if we compare it with broader Index.
All of my friends (Including Equity Broker)hate equity and love real estate as an investment. According to them none of their trade gone wrong or made any losses.
When people can make easy money in Gold & Real Estate why they will go for equities?
Many people around me deserted equity (liquidating old MF and stop SIP) in last 3 months or around and moved to FD. In normal circumstances this is a indicator of capitulation.
------------- Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ....
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Posted By: rajnsharma
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 9:41am
Nice article Basantjee as always. Equities as an asset class have given dispropornate returns to many. This is a game of temparament and basic intellect. Churning too much and not reading signs of overvalautions are very common to retail investors for which they always pay and then curse the market. I still feel a long term view of 3-5 years will yield good results. The focus should be less-leveraged businesses with good potential. If you select 5 stocks and 3 perform, then you are a winner. Stock selection is the key today. Rising tide has lifted all stocks in the bull runs...but stocks which missed fundamentals have fallen even harder and same will be repeated every time. Hence one need to focus on making steady money not so called multibaggers which can turn into disaster as the tide turns. Downward risk should always be kept in mind during stock selection. Rather than worrying about the macro, which is beyond our control....we need to focus on stock selection as a huge shift is happening in India.
------------- Wall Street makes money by it's activity, while you can make money by your in-activity - Warren Buffett
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Posted By: kunalmota
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:37am
Thanks basant-ji for informative article and removing myth that equity will always outperform other asset classes in long run.
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Posted By: funkyappu
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:44am
An excellent article.....
Investment is very different from conducting a business. In investments, what really matters isn't exactly revenue growth, but growth in net positive operating cash flow or free cash flow over a period of time which in India very few companies are able to show you on their balance-sheet. Even though, India Inc. shows exceptional growth in salaries and businesses, but that doesn't mean anything for investors, if that doesn't translate into cash flows which can be sent back to investors or aid in expanding the business with minimum capital allocation.
While running a business, on the contrary, you just dvelve on raising your revenues and thus rewarding by increasing salaries & commissions in that proportion keeping your self-designated margins and your share of money intact, giving minimum focus to shareholders. Their main aim is to grow fast by spending fast. Very few companies in India go against that rule. This is what actual promoters do for themselves and senior management most of the times, thus, eating into the shareholders' pie. So, eventually, you will calcualte something else and it'll work out something else. Thats why most of the companies perish spending fast.
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Posted By: vishmitt
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 10:56am
2 Warren Buffett quotes: "Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good results." "Your goal as an investor should simply be to purchase, at a rational price, a part interest in an easily-understandable business whose earnings are virtually certain to be materially higher five, ten and twenty years from now. Over time, you will find only a few companies that meet these standards - so when you see one that qualifies, you should buy a meaningful amount of stock. You must also resist the temptation to stray from your guidelines: If you aren’t willing to own a stock for ten years, don’t even think about owning it for ten minutes. Put together a portfolio of companies whose aggregate earnings march upward over the years, and so also will the portfolio’s market value." Emphasis mine.
------------- I might/ might not be invested in the stocks discussed here.
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Posted By: LearningToFly
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:13am
Nice observation Monkey Ji. One of the resaon why stock market in India has not been able to penetrate deeply despite being one of the oldest.
Originally posted by excel_monkey
Bahut sare budding warren buffets ka dil toD diya
One of the reasons for lower returns especially in India is corruption
Everything is eaten by the promoters
Very little is left for the shareholders
The returns would have been lot better if we had proper governance in our country |
------------- Success... at all cost.
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Posted By: nazgul
Date Posted: 14/May/2012 at 11:26am
Good article Basant
the word "Long term" is actually a relative concept and not an
absolute one, relative to the person who it applies to. For a business owner
long term can be 8-10 years. For an investor it can be 2-4 years. But the basic
fundamental is of any term (not just long) as you rightly mentioned is not
optimism but the accuracy of prediction of personal conviction. If i can just
predict the revenue and bottom line growth for next 3 quarters and no further
than that then that would surely be my long term.
It very very true when you say “strangely an investor who was happy with a 9% interest in his Bank FD
undergoes an expectation upswing and wants nothing short of a multibagger the
moment he enters the market”. I was myself griped in this malice a few
years ago. The general middle class mentality here is like “if you want a
steady flow got o an FD or NSC but if you want a bumper amount then go to the
stock market.” Even property and real estate doesn’t come close to this myth. People
are mostly willing to buy and hold property for 4-5 years before selling it off. And their buy decisions are very very
articulate. Perhaps because property investment in at minimum in upper lakhs
and not just thousands. But when it comes to share market, the patience, the
primary quality of a successful investor , is what most of the investors don’t have.
Their basic notion of investing is that stock market = bets. Make a better bet,
collect the money and exit. They don’t see
it as an investment but a gamble. No matter what they say about your style they
do it a gamble. It’s true that majority on the investors in today’s market are
like this, and this apparently gives an impression that the market tries to
favor the short term punter. Fuelled with the basic mis-understanding “that every
small cap will be a mid-cap one day” and “there is the next Infosys hidden in
these following small cap technology stocks” people plunge without thinking.
The main driver for such investors is the expectation to multiply the money in
short term, most of the time from 6 months to a year. I have seen friends who called
his broker daily after 3 -4 months for the so called “status update” because
his portfolio was doing 10% or so down. Then after another quarter or so he
sold off everything at a marginal loss. Over a bottle of whisky he went at lengths
to defend his decision of selling and crazed the broker like anything. I kinda
felt pity for him.
I believe over the long term (4-5 years) investors like the
ones on TED would fare out well from the ones punters. The risk involved in
punting in indian markets is far too much for the rewards.
------------- I don't do funds, i do fundas.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by patientbull
and that too investing at worse time one can imagine at hightest PE of sensex ever. is this right calculation?
I wonder if anyone could time this cycle and actually gain return mentioned above. I would be grateful Basantji if you can please throw light on above. Warm regards, Ashok |
20 years is a long long time. Didn't ITC, Nestle, HUL and Asian paints experience valuation expansion in 1992?
Timing is almost impossible on a regular basis.
Originally posted by paragdesai
Another asset class is Real Estate. People have made bunch of money if we compare it with broader Index.
|
Though I hate to say this a person who does NOT have enough experience and
knowledge in stocks is better off betting on a 20 year Home loan mortgage.
Originally posted by rajnsharma
Rather than worrying about the macro, which is beyond our control....we need to focus on stock selection as a huge shift is happening in India. |
How does the average investor spend his weekends than?
Originally posted by kunalmota
Thanks basant-ji for informative article and removing myth that equity will always outperform other asset classes in long run. |
This is something to feel sorry about.
Originally posted by aanambi
hi basant, nice article. Dow Jones was in 1000 range from 1966 to 1981(15 yrs) yet warren buffet made money.asset allocation across various sectors (fd,real estate,rental income,gold, annuity and equity) is must for avg investors. |
Absolutely instead of openly defining his sectors (Financials, Consumers & Media) Buffett calls it his circle of competence.
Originally posted by nikrod12
Great article Basantji .
Do you know investors of 95-2000 era who rode tech bull market and even after crash managed to make decent money? Would like to know about their side of stories. I know lot of TEDies rode 2003-07 bull market and managed to keep money post crash till date  . |
Most of the smart guys of today did that and some didn't. Samir Arora was the biggest tech bull in India and he lost post the fall recouped it in Bharti etc; Rakesh Jhunjhunwala did not understand technology but stil made his money in the beaten down PSU names.
Originally posted by manish_okhade
Splendid article but it shatters by beleif of value investing. Your article rejected all the theories value investors are proponding.
Are you suggesting in plain english to buy what is in favour ignoring the valuation and win the game or i am missing something here? If that so then how one can be out before the trend reverses? |
All theories get created with the recency effect of what is in vogue. if India has a 20 year bull run starting from an hour from now we will have a new theory!
Please rememebr that buying everything that is in flavour is not what I am suggesting. Otherwise I would have suggested people to buy Delta the year before last! What I am suggesting is to look for companies that are increasing earnings, have low capex, have favourable tailwinds and are in strong businesses run by honest and efficient people at the top. If you do that you will land yourself in companies that are the flavour of thes season.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: beryr
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 12:17pm
I wish this sobering assessment had been done in the roaring bull markets of 2006 to 2008. None of the posts during those heady days gave such advice. Maybe we will keep this in mind during the next bull**** market.
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Posted By: manish962
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 12:23pm
Very nice article and very well timed with respect to the current market situation.
Long Term meaning differs from the individual's perspective, need and capacity to understand the equity mkt. Also the Indian market is changing faster than it did in past and hence long term in past could have been ranging from 3 to 10 years would have to be altered to 2 to 5 years now.
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Posted By: sai8
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 12:54pm
Thanks Basantji,Nice write up as always.It helps me to stick to equity market with open mind.
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Posted By: rohit1889
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 2:09pm
Basantji, how can one understand flavour of the season in foresight ? How could one know in 2003 that Infra was the theme of next bull-run?
How did you manage to identify Consumer theme in 2009 ? Hawkins, Titan were in existence long before that.
------------- If you're prepared to invest in a company, then you ought to be able to explain why in simple language that a fifth grader could understand, and quickly enough so the fifth grader won't get bored.
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Posted By: vaasudeva
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 2:18pm
Good article Basantji, Distilled wisdom, hope i would have read this post before dealing with Mr market. Very apt for Indian stock markers .
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 4:02pm
a hot cup of coffee and great insights- was a great way to start tuesday morning.
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: catchsudipto
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 4:24pm
Great writeup Basant. I feel @ present market condition its a must read & follow, for small investors. Thanks for many perl of wisdom in it. Thanks for this brilliant note.
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Posted By: HUSSAIN
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 4:27pm
.......but strangely an investor who was happy with a 9% interest in his Bank FD undergoes an expectation upswing and wants nothing short of a multibagger the moment he enters the market.
Very good one Basant Ji
This sort of thinking (above underlined) has to be removed from the amateur investors mind. TED is doing a great job in this process.
Personally i was unable to go beyond a point on stocks, but once i am came across TED, it is very enlightening to know lot of things on businesses, how they perform & what to look into as an investor & more importantly what sort of businesses to avoid.
Regards
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Posted By: prudentinvestor
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 5:13pm
Awesome article Basant Sir.
Really investors today need to tone down their return expectations to be more realistic with the current scenario.
However, I disagree with your parting note, that investors who are not adept in stock picking should shun equities and move back to the shelter of fixed income. Mutual funds are there precisely for this set of people.
SIPs in long term funds have beaten indexes hands down. HDFC Tax saver have a annualized return of 30% from March 1996.
------------- "All you need for a lifetime of successful investing is a few big winners, and the pluses from those will overwhelm the minuses from the stocks that don’t work out..” - Peter Lynch
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Posted By: Circuit
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by prudentinvestor
SIPs in long term funds have beaten indexes hands down. HDFC Tax saver have a annualized return of 30% from March 1996.
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30% since 1996 or 30% CAGR since 1996 ? If later is true it is seventh wonder !!
------------- Fundamentalists and anticipators may have difficulties with risk control because a trade keeps looking ‘better’ the more it goes against them....Ed Seykota
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Posted By: pranav_pratap
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:25pm
Thanks for another great article! Hope to read an article detailing your thoughts on relevance of Beta. The basic finance textbook "Brealey Myers" that talked about Beta as a gospel truth 10 years earlier, now has the charts that show that the actual returns over the most recent period of 25 years (prior to the crisis of 2007/2008) have been completely uncorrelated to Beta and the security market line could not predict returns. At the same time factors like small company premium have generated returns.
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by pranav_pratap
Thanks for another great article! Hope to read an article detailing your thoughts on relevance of Beta. The basic finance textbook "Brealey Myers" that talked about Beta as a gospel truth 10 years earlier, now has the charts that show that the actual returns over the most recent period of 25 years (prior to the crisis of 2007/2008) have been completely uncorrelated to Beta and the security market line could not predict returns. At the same time factors like small company premium have generated returns. |
This specific book is all bullshit. 
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Circuit
Originally posted by prudentinvestor
SIPs in long term funds have beaten indexes hands down. HDFC Tax saver have a annualized return of 30% from March 1996.
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30% since 1996 or 30% CAGR since 1996 ? If later is true it is seventh wonder !!
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As per moneycontrol the annualized return of HDFC Tax Saver (G) has been 7.4% over the last 5 years
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Posted By: gaurav12123
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:52pm
Awesome
------------- When I Trade i Try To Earn Infinity.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by subu76
As per moneycontrol the annualized return of HDFC Tax Saver (G) has been 7.4% over the last 5 years |
Gaye Bhais Paani Mei!
Originally posted by pranav_pratap
Than Hope to read an article detailing your thoughts on relevance of Beta. The basic finance textbook "Brealey Myers" that talked about Beta as a gospel truth 10 years |
Prefer Warren Buffett's teachings to those kind of things.
Originally posted by prudentinvestor
Awesome article Basant Sir. Really investors today need to tone down their return expectations to be more realistic with the current scenario.
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Not at all. We should strive for more just that I said that it can't happen without following a focused apprach.
Originally posted by HUSSAIN
it is very enlightening to know lot of things on businesses, how they perform & what to look into as an investor & more importantly what sort of businesses to avoid.
Regards |
Personally I think this is as (if not more) important as trying to study the Balance Sheet.
Originally posted by tigershark
a hot cup of coffee and great insights- was a great way to start tuesday morning. |
SO you woke up and smelt the Coffee!!!
Originally posted by vaasudeva
Good article Basantji, Distilled wisdom, hope i would have read this post before dealing with Mr market. Very apt for Indian stock markers . |
Unfortunately it is.
Originally posted by manish962
Very nice article and very well timed with respect to the current market situation.
Long Term meaning differs from the individual's perspective, need and capacity to understand the equity mkt. Also the Indian market is changing faster than it did in past and hence long term in past could have been ranging from 3 to 10 years would have to be altered to 2 to 5 years now.
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Yes, things happen very fast these days as time span gets compresed and people rush in to buy/sell from the same door due to faster information dissemination through electronic media/internet etc.
Originally posted by sai8
Thanks Basantji,Nice write up as always.It helps me to stick to equity market with open mind. |
An open mind is all that we need SIr!
Originally posted by rohit1889
Basantji, how can one understand flavour of the season in foresight ? How could one know in 2003 that Infra was the theme of next bull-run? How did you manage to identify Consumer theme in 2009 ? Hawkins, Titan were in existence long before that.
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I have been asked this multiple times but if you ask me I have no concrete answer to boast off maybe it just happened. Personally I think that if we keep looking for companies with above average growth we may land in the sector which could be leading the next bull run. Software, Mobile Telecom, Retail, Infra, COnsumer etc. Think about the past and this seems to be the only similarity plus they HAVE to appear expensive to the "naked eye".
Originally posted by catchsudipto
Great writeup Basant. I feel @ present market condition its a must read & follow, for small investors. Thanks for many perl of wisdom in it. Thanks for this brilliant note. |
All investors at some point were small we become big but like the market not all small caps become large caps!
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: pranav_pratap
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 10:26pm
Financial reports can tell you only this much. The biggest problem that i find in choosing stocks, especially companies smaller that the largest firms/groups in the country, is finding about the honesty level / trustworthiness of promoters. Apart from talking to a few people in the market, what would be the ways to decide on trustworthiness of promoters? I have lost repeatedly investing in good businesses where firms acquire promoter owned businesses at fraudulently high valuations. When I was working with Bank I could look at cibil and RBI's defaulters list, but that too was a very small help.
Any inputs appreciated.
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Posted By: prudentinvestor
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by Circuit
30% since 1996 or 30% CAGR since 1996 ? If later is true it is seventh wonder !!
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30% Annualized Returns since launch (Mar 1996)
http://www.valueresearchonline.com/funds/newsnapshot.asp?schemecode=854
Originally posted by subu76
As per moneycontrol the annualized return of HDFC Tax Saver (G) has been 7.4% over the last 5 years |
We are speaking here about long term, 5 year CAGR for the fund is 7.49% as evident from the above link.
------------- "All you need for a lifetime of successful investing is a few big winners, and the pluses from those will overwhelm the minuses from the stocks that don’t work out..” - Peter Lynch
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Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:38am
Originally posted by prudentinvestor
30% Annualized Returns since launch (Mar 1996)
We are speaking here about long term, 5 year CAGR for the fund is 7.49% as evident from the above link.
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This confirms something that has been mentioned to me by a friend who is a veteran of the MF industry. An overwhelming majority of actively managed equity MFs outperformed the Sensex by a wide margin in the 1990s and even in the first 2-3 years of the 21st century, due to a combination of preferential access to financial data and insider info. However, as the number of Asset Management Cos increased & SEBI and the stock exchanges got better tools to analyse the data for insider trading, and most importanttly the internet gave faster access to finanical info to other investors, this advantage has eroded very significantly. Now we have a situation where only the really good, or really lucky, MF managers outperform the market while a majority underperform badly.
------------- When all else is lost, the future still remains. - Christian Nestell Bovée
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Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 7:46am
To my above post I would like to add that I think Prashant Jain is one of the best MF managers in business and I have a lot of respect for his views, but the stark difference between his fund's performance since inception and last 5 years immediately reminded me of my friend's remarks.
------------- When all else is lost, the future still remains. - Christian Nestell Bovée
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Posted By: kmp_saij
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 9:11am
Originally posted by basant
Though I hate to say this a person who does NOT have enough experience and
knowledge in stocks is better off betting on a 20 year Home loan mortgage.
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But then how people will get experience and knowledge in stock market? How you can learn to swim without even jumping into water?
Right judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.
I think the point you want to convey is we should not be too much greedy when in learning phase of investing and only small part of earning should go to investing during learning phase.
Also as someone said: "stock market is a place where people with experience meet people with money, people with money get experience and people with experience get money.
------------- Own whatever’s feared, shun whatever’s beloved.
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 9:59am
Very Thoughtful and thought provoking...
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.
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Posted By: datta.supratik
Date Posted: 15/May/2012 at 11:39am
Basantji,
Isn't this a good time to collect some stable as HDFC twins may be in bits and prieces?
What is your viewpoint?
Thanks!!
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Posted By: vasantcool
Date Posted: 16/May/2012 at 3:50pm
Good Article. Some of the events in the Current scenario look similar to March 2008. What are the possibilities that we are heading for 2008 kind of free fall? What should our strategy be then?
------------- Have fun!
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Posted By: THe Saint
Date Posted: 16/May/2012 at 4:33pm
I believe the return expectations from equities should be very realistic and in sync with ones own investment objective.
Just because few of them made huge money does not mean that majority of us will be able to achieve great returns from equities.
However we can expect to get a satisfactory return and this should differ for each individual as to what satisfactory return is for him or her depending on individual needs, circumstances, requirements and lifestyles.
Irrespective of the time frame, if you meet your objectives or are close to meeting them, don't wait longer for greater returns, you might never reach there.
Financial planning is inevitable as failing to plan is the best plan for failure.
The pessimism around the stock market is justified and most of the analysts and experts are painting a gloomy picture ahead.
Sometimes things change quickly, sometimes you need to WAIT.
------------- When proper temperament joins with proper intellectual framework, then you get rational behavior
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 16/May/2012 at 7:40pm
I see the following: on looking at the quarterly returns since 1998 http://www.valueresearchonline.com/funds/fundperformance.asp?schemecode=220 - here 1. Most of the outperformance was in the beginning years. 2. They adroitly managed the fund to take advantage of the 1999 bull market, yet dodged the bear market in 2001 and then again took advantage of the next bull cycle. Awesome job.  3. The inablity to escape the 2008 bear market has hurt.
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Posted By: johnsingh
Date Posted: 30/May/2012 at 1:23pm
Nice Article thanks.
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