ICRA can it be next CRISIL?
Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Investment Ideas - Creating winning portfolios!
Forum Name: Emerging companies - Mid caps that can become large cap
Forum Discription: These are companies operating in growing markets having have certain niches or specific attributes like new sector plays. These are emerging multibaggers with high risks and high rewards.
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1308
Printed Date: 07/May/2025 at 1:31am
Topic: ICRA can it be next CRISIL?
Posted By: tyler_durden
Subject: ICRA can it be next CRISIL?
Date Posted: 24/Oct/2007 at 11:48am
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ICRA Limited (an Associate of Moody's Investors Service) was incorporated in 1991 as an independent and professional company.
1.ICRA is a leading provider of investment information and credit rating services in India.
2. The developed world is reeling under the impact of sub-prime issue. It has highlighted the importance of credit ratingof loans. Agencies like ICRA will be come important.
3. In USA Fair ISAAC which gives FICO scores is a big name and is 2 Billion dollar company.
4. With growing importance of credit ratings ICRA can become next CRISIL or FICO. ICICI, HDFC, SBI and all other leading banks will need a credit rating going forward.
current market cap is just 900 crores, equity base is also small..only 1 crore shares are there. Moody's hold 28% in ICRA.
ICRA has broad-based its services for the corporate and financial sectors, both in India and overseas, and currently offers its services under the following banners: '
FY08 eps can touch 20 for ICRA has tied up with big banks, on that basis its available at a PE of 45 or so...
It is not cheap but the upscale opportunity is so huge that earnings will always catch up....They are also planning to enter Consulting busines, They are already into KPO..KPO forms only 3% of their business so no risk of dollar rise...
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ps: i HAVE INITIATED A SMALL EXPOSURE IN ICRA ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Rating ServicesReplies:
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 12:03pm
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Phenomenal business with a foreign partner (Moodys). This is a must buy stock for people looking at stability of returns in the range of 25% - 30% CAGR. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 12:14pm
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basantji, would u put CRISIL ahead of ICRA or both at par. As I see it, CRISIL seems to be the market leader, is currently available mcuh cheaper as compared to ICRA. Are there any special triggers for ICRA that CRISIL is not able to bank on? |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 12:30pm
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I think the tie ups with major banks will be the key to further growth of any of these companies. There are rumors that ICRA will be offering its credit rating services to SBI along with 6 other banks. and if this is true then ICRA can be a multibagger from here,
as regards crisil is cheaper than ICRA ..i would say we should not compare these kind of companies on basis of PE alone...once MF services of ICRA goes break even then we can see sudden spurt in their earnings and company will again become cheap....more over as per earnings estimates..FY08 eps will be around 20 ..so on these basis company is available at a PE of 45 going forward ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 12:35pm
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ICRA is already in tie up with indian bank, indian overseas bank, canara bank, dena bank, indian bank + 2 other banks and expects MoU with SBI...
going forward ICICI and HDFC tie ups will be crucial to both CRISIL and ICRA....
------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 12:57pm
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It is like choosing between infy and Wipro. ICRA has Moody and CRISIL has S&P though ICRA looks expensive it comes with very small floating stock so it will always appear expensive. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 1:07pm
you mentioned Infy and Wipro and then ICRA and CRISIL....was this in certain order  like infy is to ICRA and wipro is to CRISIL??  ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 1:11pm
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i guess, that was on the free float part.... However, I would have bet on Wipro rather than Infy based on some different factors for sure... I am too keen to bet on the credit rating story in a booming financial market like India - a perfect pickle axe theme candidate (thoda thoda main bhi seekh raha hun!) koi sector specialist aur info de CRISIL aur ICRA ke bare mein to badhiya rahega... |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 1:14pm
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i have one friend working with ICRA...actually thats how i was introduced to this idea...i will talk to him in detail ASAP and share the key points....in the mean time if we have any specialist here in TED then it would be great to hear his/her views.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Oct/2007 at 2:48pm
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1. once BASEL 2 is mandatory both ICRA and CRISIL will gain...
2. PSU banks being stakeholder's in ICRA will prefer ICRA..SBI will go with ICRA...
WB holds moodys ...RJ holds crisil....so both merit investment....ICRA is lookin expensive but considering future earnings then its available cheap...
in addition to this IFCI, Unit Trust of India will also come to ICRA...
another trigger is that ICRA is starting consulting services...
then ICRA is first indian rating agency to enter europe...they re assisting some bulgarian agency....
------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2007 at 7:33pm
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I C R A Limited An Associate of Moody’s Investors Service ICRA Limited: Unaudited Financial Results for the quarter and half year ended September 30, 2007 The Board of Directors of ICRA Limited at its meeting held today approved the Unaudited Financial Results for the quarter and half year ended September 30, 2007. Highlights ICRA’s Total Income for the quarter ended September 30, 2007 was Rs. 179.63 million vis a vis Rs. 108.89 million in the corresponding quarter of the previous fiscal, reflecting growth of 65% during the current fiscal. ICRA’s Profit after Tax was higher at Rs. 70.22 million as compared with Rs. 33.25 million for the corresponding quarter of the previous fiscal, showing growth of 111%. Group ICRA’s consolidated Total Income for the quarter ended September 30, 2007 was Rs. 282.20 million vis-ŕ-vis Rs. 167.10 million in the corresponding quarter of the previous fiscal, reflecting growth of 69%. Group ICRA’s Profit after Tax was higher at Rs. 81.58 million as compared with Rs. 31.30 million for the corresponding quarter of the previous fiscal, showing growth of 161%. For the half year ended September 30, 2007 ICRA’s Total Income was Rs. 318.79 million vis a vis Rs.225.57 million in the corresponding period of the previous fiscal, reflecting growth of 41% during the current fiscal. ICRA’s Profit after Tax was higher at Rs. 117.18 million as compared with Rs. 73.38 million for the corresponding half year of the previous fiscal, showing growth of 60%. Group ICRA’s consolidated Total Income for the half year was Rs. 496.49 million vis-ŕ-vis Rs. 338.45 million in the corresponding half year of the previous fiscal, reflecting growth of 47%. Profit after Tax was higher at Rs. 125.49 million as compared with Rs. 68.06 million for the corresponding half year of the previous fiscal, showing growth of 84%. ICRA’s Rating Services Income for the half year ended September 30, 2007 was Rs. 280.48 million vis a vis Rs. 196.22 million in the corresponding half year of the previous fiscal, reflecting growth of 43% during the current fiscal. This growth is attributable to the increase in income from all the major business segments viz Corporate, Financial, Structured Finance, Public Finance and Grading Services. The consolidated Group ICRA includes ICRA Management Consulting Services Limited, ICRA Techno Analytics Limited and ICRA Online Limited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
great results indeed...expect year end EPS to cross 20 ... and at 980 its available at PE of 49 .... current scenario is expensive but expect earnings to catch up with valuations....one of my friend who s an analyst has told me that ICRA can touch 1600 by year end....but am not looking at technicals....the business is good and has tremendous scope ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 30/Oct/2007 at 2:26pm
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ICRA is also into KPO....KPO is touted as next big thing post BPO.....KPO is a high margin business (35-40% for third party service providers like ICRA) .... right now KPO is only 3% of ICRA's revenues so growth can come from this quarter too...but dollar downside will be a threat for KPO business.....
2009 will mark major expansion in eps of ICRA as by 2009/10 banks will have to register themselves under BASEL2....+ foreign banks will enter indian mkt in a big way and then credit ratings will be very important business and direct beneficiary - ICRA and CRISIL...
crisil too has posted great results in this qtr...so both re worth buying on dips..
------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: s_praharaj
Date Posted: 01/Nov/2007 at 12:12pm
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ICRA will be a steady compounder in the times to come.
With Rating given a lot importance and becomming mandatory for big loans by Banks and with fewer competitions, ICRA seems to be a sure shot. ------------- Shashi Praharaj |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2007 at 4:08pm
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In USA we have trans union which keeps a track of every transaction of a customer, like whatever a person purchases be it a car or vegetables or newspaper etc., the loans taken by him, EMIs paid by him...they also keep a track of all the cards held by a customer... then these records are sold to big banks and credit card companies...and each record or transaction fetches these companies some money.... Do we have any company on similar lines in India?? ICRA and CRISIL do what FICO, S&P and Moodys re doing...and all of them are big names in USA...
lastly
shashi ji can you tell us how ICRA or CRISIL charge banks?? do they charge per branch or per customer for credit ratings?? i want to know how do they charge their clients for these ratings? ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 1:16pm
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Icra Limited has informed the Exchange regarding a press release, titled "ICRA in MoU with UCO Bank to rate Bank Loans under RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II". Date: 2007-11-14
come 2009 and ICRA will be flying high ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 1:34pm
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I have 2 shares of ICRA (luke have 2 shares of mindtree). Interesting number ..... ------------- Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 1:38pm
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You guys are not telling us the other 4 digits after "2"!!! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: luke123
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 1:46pm
I typically buy 2 shares of a company as soon as it reaches beyond my initial research so that I get to see its price every day. Don't know why not 1 and why not 3 and it doesn't matter if it is 500 rupess stock or a 50 rupee stock. 0s are added after 2 only on availability of capital and more conviction. BTW, I applied for ICRA IPO. Was convinced about the stocy. Didn't get any subscription. Should have bought it on listing day but ab pachtaye kya hot.. Luke |
Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 1:53pm
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Although my explanation is not warranted even though ....
I buy share after 100% conviction, further purchase are function of capital availability only...this is the reason why 2 remained 2 with no post 4 or 6 zeros.  ------------- Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 2:40pm
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ICRA seemed expensive to me too before i saw this quarter's result...and since the earnings are growing so fast ICRA will always remain expensive.... but number of triggers are there which will push the price higher and higher...also there are only 2 major players in this field..CRISIL and ICRA....its very much like coke and pepsi...and i am sure returns will be equally rewarding ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 2:43pm
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ICRA has a very small floating stock so it would remain expensive. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 2:45pm
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small floating stock(1 crore equity shares only)..is a good thing according to me.....its not too liquid and weaker hands are not touching this counter at the moment.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 2:54pm
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See the public holding!
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 14/Nov/2007 at 3:14pm
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wow..general public is not even 10 lac shares...i was always keeping in mind the figure of 1 crore equity... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 9:01am
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Basant jee A personal question with no gun on your head.
Your bullishness on BFSI sector made you put money in 3 banks. Regarding Brokerage space, you explained that it is linked to Stock Markets.
How about fin svcs player like ICRA. What made you not put money here....current valuations or growth prospects?
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 9:07am
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Great concept but company will grow at 25%-30% onlyy with no scope of a PE rerating so for someone who is content witha 25% CAGR this is as god as anything but on apoint to point comparision the larger private banks with stable model do 30% quite easily.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 11:43am
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is this specific to icra or u have the same opinion about crisil as well? Isn't higher credit off take from all banks and NBF's going to create higher demand for ratings - which can come from only two players ICRA and CRISIL... I couldn't get the basis 25% CAGR... |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 11:53am
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Actually that was ageneralised statement on how fast rating companie scan grow but their visibility is very high maybe 10 years or more.While Basell - II will create and expand the amrket I am not too sure of a sustainable 50% here. Maybe the ones tracking this company closely can answer. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 12:18pm
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Basant ji very rightly mentioned that there is no scope of PE rerating...but earnings are growing too fast for ICRA and will continue to grow at same pace for next few years....25% growth rate is a bit on lower side....with each quarterly result being announced ICRA becomes cheap...price catches up with earnings and it again appears to be costly ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 12:40pm
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PE wil not move down but can you indicate the kind of growth artes that we are seeing at ICRA? ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 6:08pm
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first a piece of news
Icra Limited has informed the Exchange that: "ICRA Limited and United Bank of India, a premier nationalised bank headquartered in Kolkata, have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which ICRA will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II". Further, a copy of the press release in this regard, titled "ICRA in MoU with United Bank of India to rate Bank Loans under RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II"
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basant sir..i expect the earnings to grow at 40% rate .... it will not only serve banking sector only.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 6:38pm
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40% is really good!What has been the historical growth? ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 7:37pm
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for past 3 years EPS for ICRA was
but credit ratings, IPO ratings and framework for ASEL 2 is catching up now....so it will be next 2-3 years which will see sudden spurt in earnings....and ICRA is signing MoUs with a lot of banks....it is doing credit ratings for other financial institutions also.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 9:22pm
| Investment in ICRA looks like a bank FD that pays 30% interest. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 10:04pm
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If one goes by the Peter Lynch rules, then he says "Avoid investing in the "next Microsoft, next Google",etc.....So better change the title of this thread ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2007 at 6:46pm
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At cmp ICRA is cheaper than CRISIL....I think a gud buy ... trading at a pe of 46...way below its highs ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2007 at 7:13pm
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I think after the Sub-prime mess in US, investors are not liking the rating agencies anymore. ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2007 at 7:47pm
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You may be right. Especially in the West, sentiment is pretty low about rating agencies. Moody's (Buffett's holding) is down-in-the-dumps.
Still the business model is attractive.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2007 at 8:45pm
Argument seems very strong can you elaborate by any detailed study/articles on this.You are correct if rating agencies had been good lending problems would have been restricted.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2007 at 10:19pm
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http://www.business-standard.com/banking/storypage.php?leftnm=lmnu3&subLeft=1&autono=305923&tab=r -
This article might be relevant
"Need for studying role of rating agencies "
------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 03/Dec/2007 at 7:33pm
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Icra Limited has informed the Exchange regarding a press release, titled "ICRA in MoU with Bank of Maharashtra to rate Bank Loans under RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework". A copy of the press release shall be available on the NSE website (http://www.nseindia.com) under: Corporates > Latest Announcements and on the Extranet Server (/Common/Corporate Announcements). Date: 2007-12-03
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if business model is good.and ICRA is not takin any losses because of sub prime crisis one should not be worried...sub prime crisis and events like these shud even make these comapnies a compelling buy....to avoid any such event happening in future financial power houses will turn to companies like ICRA and CRISIL only...rest picture will become clear only after 2-3 quarters...but am sure of earnings growth in the region of 40% or more for next 3 years... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 03/Dec/2007 at 7:38pm
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Nothing wrong with ICRA. Sub-prime is a short term phenomena (6 months). The stock price is governed by earnings. So as long as earnings grow, ICRA should Rock !! ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: DarkHorse
Date Posted: 03/Dec/2007 at 8:46pm
| ICRA can it be next CRISIL? Crisil market cap is 2500 Cr and ICRA market cap is 968 Cr. If Crisil is well established and renowned, it would be better to prefer Crisil. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 03/Dec/2007 at 10:07pm
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its a personal choice.....given the way things are developing for ICRA and given its extremely small equity base i find it more lucrative as compared to crisil...also there were delisting concerns in case of crisil....
whether u chose icici or hdfc 3 years back both wud have given great returns and i feel its true in this case also ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 27/Dec/2007 at 7:12pm
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one more MoU
ICRA Ltd has informed BSE that the Company and Corporation Bank have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (M0U) under which the Company will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II. In this regard the Company has issued the following Press Release: "Credit rating agency ICRA Ltd (ICRA) and Corporation Bank have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which ICRA will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II. ICRA's ratings for the standardized approach would be carried out under its "Line of Credit" rating service and would enable Corporation Bank to assign the new risk weights applicable to its borrowers under Basel-II. The risk weights would be linked to the various rating categories and would be as per RBI's Basel II guidelines. To assist potential and existing borrowers of Corporation Bank in obtaining ratings, ICRA is offering special terms to the clients of Corporation Bank. The MoU between ICRA and Corporation Bank would assist in implementing RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework under Basel-II". ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 02/Jan/2008 at 8:17pm
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another one:
ICRA Ltd has informed BSE that the Company and Allahabad Bank, a premier nationalised bank headquartered in Kolkata, have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which the Company will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II. In this regard the Company has issued the following press release: "Credit rating agency ICRA Ltd (ICRA) and Allahabad Bank a premier nationalised bank headquartered in Kolkata, have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which ICRA will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II. ICRA's ratings for the standardized approach would be carried out under its "Line of Credit" rating service and would enable the Bank to assess the new risk weights applicable to its borrowers under Basal-II. The risk weights would be linked to the various rating categories and would be as per RBI's above guideline.
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Current PE is 35...and going fwd ICRA is available dirt cheap........ ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 02/Jan/2008 at 8:23pm
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ICRA to NDTV:
Acquisitions on radar, but not yet finalised
New businesses will contribute 10% to the topline
Guideline for REITS boost for ICRA ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 10/Jan/2008 at 1:13pm
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one more MoU
ICRA Ltd has informed BSE that ICRA Ltd (ICRA) and State Bank of Mysore have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which ICRA will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II.
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i am tierd of readin these MoU news..now stock price ..kuch to bado
 ....------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: nil_money
Date Posted: 10/Jan/2008 at 1:27pm
Tyler ji ... daro mat .. now a days stock prices are doubled in a weeks time ... prob is we hav to wait for tht moment patiently  ------------- Thanks, Nilesh |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 10/Jan/2008 at 1:48pm
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you re right...these MoU's have just been signed the money will start flowing once ICRA implement them....so current price is already discounting future price in a big way.....and its long since ICRA is consolidating.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 13/Jan/2008 at 9:50pm
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The Insurance Regulatory Authority of India (Irda) is planning credit rating for insurance companies.
The actuarial division of Irda is preparing parameters which will facilitate grading of such companies. One such parameter is the embedded value in insurance companies, which is similar to the price-earnings ratio in case of listed companies.
It is not a regulatory issue . But the moment a company enters credit rating, it will improve reporting of financials. The important job now is to work out the parameters so that various ratios could be calculated and analyzed,” said R. Kannan, whole-time member of Irda.
He said that working out parameters such as embedded values, facilitating credit rating and a risk-based capital structure for insurance companies is on top of the Irda’s agenda now.(BS) ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: bub100
Date Posted: 14/Jan/2008 at 12:08pm
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but the stock is not moving ------------- gs |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 14/Jan/2008 at 6:46pm
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adlabs didn moved for hell lot of months but then it was taken by euphoria.....if fundamentals are good...earnings are visible then hold on to a good stock....it happened with NW18 too..got stuck at 350 levels but then suddenly moved past 500..... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2008 at 12:08pm
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Icra Limited has informed the Exchange regarding a press release dated January 16, 2008, titled "ICRA in MoU with SBS to rate Bank Loans under RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II". A copy of the press release shall be available on the NSE website (http://www.nseindia.com) under: Corporates > Latest Announcements and on the Extranet Server (/Common/Corporate Announcements).
------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2008 at 3:16pm
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Results does not seems to be good QoQ. Kunal, what do you make out ? ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2008 at 3:44pm
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there is a dip QoQ...but all the MoUs signed by ICRA IN RECENT TIMES ARE THE REASON WHY I AM BULLISH ON THIS COMPANY...ipo grading is one source of income...but income from loan ratings for major banks will boost the income....it constitues a very small percentage of my folio.... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: gemseeker
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2008 at 11:06pm
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ICRA has Moody's as one of the Shareholders and Moody's has Warren Buffet as its shareholder. That makes Dada Own ICRA.
Results were not impressive. I would give ICRA 3 more quarters before I exit out of this completely.
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Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 28/Jan/2008 at 1:30pm
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i am also holding icra from next 3-4 quarters viewpoint ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 28/Jan/2008 at 1:53pm
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Tyler do you know what is the market share that ICRA has among the ones in the business like CRISIL,FITCH and CARE. I have read that Fitch has also been agressive on India all though the market size is increasing so are the no of competitors with new offerings.Your comments pls. ------------- Warm REgards Nitin Jagtap |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 3:33pm
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ICRA Ltd has informed BSE that ICRA Management Consulting Services Ltd (IMaCS), a wholly—owned subsidiary of the Company and Dun & Bradstreet Philippines, Inc. (DBP) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which IMaCS and DBP will jointly offer advisory / consulting services in the Philippines.
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nitin i really dont know how to exactly calculate the market share for these kind of companies...what i am looking at is ICRA's aggressive MoU signing spree ...all these MoU's will start pouing in money in a year os so...next from my friends at IIm i heard ICRA recruited in a big way for their consulting arm....so growth will come from there too...
PNB signs MoUs with ICRA & Fitch Ratings India
http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/news/pnb-signs-mousicra--fitch-ratings-india/16/02/324781 - http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/news/pnb-signs-mousicra--fitch-ratings-india/16/02/324781 ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 3:44pm
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Going by the announcments, for a novice it may appear that the only business activity of ICRA is just signing MoUs!
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 07/Feb/2008 at 6:13pm
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ha ha...thats true sir...they re into ipo grading..credit rating...basel 2 implementation...consulting....mf distribution...etc etc... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 12/Feb/2008 at 9:22am
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More competition ....
And tough times for rating agencies in US: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Market_News/Who_will_rate_the_rating_companies/articleshow/2777840.cms - Who will rate the rating companies?
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 27/Feb/2008 at 3:49pm
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more competition..more MoUs...kulman ji ur words comin true...now even i am thinkin ICRA MoU ke alawa bhi kuch karti hai kya?? one more:
ICRA Ltd has informed BSE that ICRA Ltd (ICRA) and State Bank of Travancore have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) under which ICRA will assign ratings to the Bank's loans and its other exposures under the standardized approach of RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II.
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am just waiting for these MoU s to start pouring in money for ICRA... ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 27/Feb/2008 at 4:49pm
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Allong with the CEO,CFO they have another very senior position created called as the CSO also called as Chief Signing Officer whose job is just taking care of signing of new MoUs ------------- Warm REgards Nitin Jagtap |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 27/Feb/2008 at 7:18pm
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It is rumoured that ICRA's country head is fond of pets & has a lovely cat at home. Neighbours have confirmed that his cat makes sound :'Mou' instead of the usual 'Meow'.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 17/Mar/2008 at 12:53pm
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Yeh lo....ek aur MoU. Yeh aag kab bujhegi?
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 17/Mar/2008 at 1:45pm
ICRA shareholders are busy signing IOUs and the company is signing MOUs ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 17/Mar/2008 at 1:56pm
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It is rumoured that ICRA is expanding big time & adding lots of office space. Where else would they put those box files containing MoUs?
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 28/Mar/2008 at 4:20pm
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Tyler.......one more! http://www.bseindia.com/qresann/news.asp?newsid=%7b723CD385-499A-40AC-8489-E830DAA26D29%7d - ICRA in MoU with State Bank of Hyderabad to rate Bank Loans under RBI's New Capital Adequacy Framework for Basel-II
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 28/Mar/2008 at 5:34pm
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right now ICRA is deep down in gallows....these news wont do any good...ab to EPS expansion hi kuch bhala karegi...which am sure will happen ------------- If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. |
Posted By: gopal
Date Posted: 28/Mar/2008 at 5:49pm
Kulman Bhai,
Who knows one of these days these MOU's might become tradable on some rating exchange, since it might be neccessary to have MOU to rate a company & all the MOU's will be with ICRA. Then the other rating compaies can buy, trade or lease these MOU's. Then since all want it there could even become a game of catch & MOU's.
But seriously speaking so many MOU's, they must be beating even Government of India in this game of MOU's
------------- Women are like the stock market Coz they're irrational n can bankrupt u if u're not careful |
Posted By: balloon
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2008 at 9:52pm
| Given the kind of changes taking place in the finance world....(which i think is nothing short of evolutionary).....will ratings agencies hold on to their holy grail status?? |
Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2008 at 10:03pm
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IPO grading is not a huge business driver for the company.
Even in a good year there would be around 120 IPOs and there are four players in the market. The main business remains, and will remain, debt rating. One can say that with India Inc expanding, prospects of this sector remain good. Also, their consulting business is doing well. It's a high-margin business. ------------- "History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett |
Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2008 at 10:06pm
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Besides Ratings, ICRA Group offers consulting, information technology based, information, and outsourcing services.
------------- "History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2008 at 9:59am
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I think that the gravity of the saving agencies have gone down the abyss after what happened in the Us. Think of down grades when companies say that they would pack up if money isn't available in 48 hours. These guys are too late for comfort. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2008 at 12:57pm
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Warren Buffett also voiced a similar opinion about Moody's on CNBC.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/23451068 - http://www.cnbc.com/id/23451068
QUICK: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Actually, Charlie, Warren was just listening in to what you were talking about, and we started talking about Moody's because Berkshire owns about one sixth of Moody's. And that was a question that came in from a lot of--from viewers, as well, Warren, is what do you think about the value of Moody's? Was this a mistake to jump in and buy this stake? BUFFETT: Well, it wasn't a mistake at the price we bought it. But in terms of the--the intrinsic business value of Moody's decreased last year. I mean, Wells Fargo stock was down last year. I don't think the intrinsic business value shrunk. In fact, I said I thought it probably increased a touch. And there's a lot of companies whose stock went down where the intrinsic business value did not go down, or maybe went up. But I--our holding a Moody's, which is a significant holding, they're--I don't think there's any question that the intrinsic business value of a Moody's shrunk last year, just as McGraw-Hill owns S&P and the S&P component of McGraw-Hill, it--they have less of a moat around them and they're going to be affected for a long time by the experience of the last couple years. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 1:04pm
And........some more:
Aur kuchh kaam bhi karte hain kya yeh log? ------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 14/Oct/2008 at 12:02pm
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Quality matters in bad times:
I observed that during the bull run their used to be an amazing equivalence between the P/Es of Crisil and Icra. I used to be amazed that any difference would get corrected within a day or two.
However, now that the bull run is over, they have decoupled.
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 14/Oct/2008 at 12:30pm
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Going by the news in the media in the US cause of subprime is AAA rating by S&P and Moodys rating agencies to Sub-prime mortgages sold to investors globally. They have not been sued yet, but It would not be surprising to find them sued out of business. Anyway their business model is under scrutiny.
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 14/Oct/2008 at 12:44pm
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Reknowed value investors like Whitney Tilson have shorted Moody's.
Buffett almost admits he would have sold Moody's had it not been for the significant holding %.
In India, authorities are considering forcing Crisil to divest it's other businesses. Saw that on eco times a few days back.
So yes, the business has some headwinds at the moment.
IMO the franchise value of Crisil has not been eroded. Atleast thats the reasoning why i am holding onto this one.
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Posted By: adityancs
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 2:16pm
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The present ratios are in favour of ICRA than CRISIL. I am sure, II qtr result will also be in favour of ICRA |
Posted By: prabhakarkudva
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 2:27pm
I am not sure how correct it is to compare Moody's and ICRA or S&P and Crisil. The parent companies are functioning in developed markets and have run their course while the Indian counterparts are still in their infancy.We havent yet seen the height of financial activity that Moody's or S&P has seen.Also no matter what,as India grows,there will be a lot of credit growth and those loans will have to be rated and no one other can credible companies can do it. i guess ICRA/Crisil have a long way to go before something happens that can permanently alter their fundamental landscape. ------------- Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time. |
Posted By: prashantmohta
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 2:48pm
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The present ratios are in favour of ICRA than CRISIL. I am sure, II qtr result will also be in favour of ICRA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------would u like share your thoughts for this surity.
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Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 10:20pm
This is what i understand from a report. The next ( 2 years) growth driver for these ratings agencies is from rating bank loans. Most of the ICRA revenues are coming from this vertical. Banks are needed to get opinion from at least 2 rating agencies. ICRA is very small compared to CRISIL. Revenues from this vertical will have bigger impact to ICRA top line and bottom line compared to CRISIL. I guess, most of the expectations are based on this assumption. Let us see inputs from member_profile.asp?PF=3468&FID=30 - adityancs . ------------- While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior. |
Posted By: Circuit
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 11:06pm
Indeed they have.... these parent companies are the ones who rated US financial institutions and were largely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the_subprime_crisis - RESPONSIBLE for collapse of global financial system. I hope the two indian kids CRISIL & ICRA don't follow their parent's path. |
Posted By: ab170809
Date Posted: 30/Oct/2009 at 8:34pm
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While upon comparing the aggregate figures, ICRA appears much smaller than CRISIL, the difference significantly narrows down if we consider only their rating business (and that business the main reason why most of us are interested in these two companies). Overall, CRISIL looks much bigger and better because while the other business segments of CRISIL (Advisory and Research) are doing very well, the other business segments of ICRA are contributing very little in terms of PBDT.
I am providing a few comparative figures for the rating business segments of the two:
CRISIL ICRA
Revenue from Rating business for latest FY (Rs cr) 189 89
Revenue Contribution from Rating business 37% 65% PBDT from Rating business for latest FY (Rs cr) 91 59
PBDT Contribution from Rating business 47% 95%
Rating business PBDTM 48% 66%
3-yr growth in Rating Revenues 40% 42%
3-yr growth in Rating PBDT 37% 46%
Hence, it can be seen that if we consider only the rating business ICRA actually looks better that CRISIL on the basis of above figures. However, both the companies should do well over the coming years if the Corporate Debt market picks up in India (which it should, keeping in view the fact that it is still underdeveloped in India whereas in a developed country like USA, the Corporate Debt market is 4-5 times bigger than their stock market).
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 31/Oct/2009 at 12:10pm
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a06qLPCeo.vQ&pos=4 - Buffett's Berkshire Cuts Moody's Stake Again, Remains Biggest Shareholder
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: gbhupesh
Date Posted: 31/Oct/2009 at 12:20pm
| What' an alternative to rating agencies? |
Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 31/Oct/2009 at 2:58pm
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Its an interesting twist.
WB selling Moodys, some (brave) TED's buying ICRA. ------------- "Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet |
Posted By: ab170809
Date Posted: 31/Oct/2009 at 10:19am
| Moodys and S&P are not comparable to ICRA and CRISIL as the former set are primarily operating in developed economies with mature corporate debt markets with near zero future growth prospects. ICRA and CRISIL, on the other hand, are operating in (actually controlling!) a market with very high (possibly explosive) growth prospects of corporate debt and related instruments, if things are handled well. |
Posted By: ab170809
Date Posted: 01/Nov/2009 at 12:06pm
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http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=53738 -
Credit Rating Scheme for Micro & Small Enterprises
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Posted By: ab170809
Date Posted: 01/Nov/2009 at 12:19pm
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http://www.equitybulls.com/admin/news2006/news_det.asp?id=62872 -
ICRA arm IMaCS and ECORYS sign MoU for Management Consulting
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Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 1:27pm
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the kind of tide they are going against in west, a govt. rating agency that will supersede all these s & ps , fitch, and moodys for house mortgages will make it very hard to earn future goodwill.
most blowing change is the bill that will allow customers to sue them for if they did poor job of rating an investment. that can drain them like pharma companies. otherwise icra at fy10 pe of 15 was just a dream. icra is not profitable in any other segment other than ratings and consulting space is crowded. |
Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 3:01pm
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I have similar concerns. If there is regulatory change in the west - their overseas prospects will diminish.
We have often discussed - what has happend in the developed world tends to follow (after a time lag) also in india.
This may not happend immediately - but creates big uncertainty in the future sustainable earnings. To compensate for this uncertainty we would need a higher margin of safety in the price.
------------- "Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet |
Posted By: ab170809
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 4:16pm
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Its due to these concerns that the two companies (CRISIL & ICRA) practically controlling such a lucrative market are available at such reasonable valuations.
I personally feel that even if (a big if) govt at some point of time decides to exercise greater control over the rating industry, it will still be through the existing rating companies. For eg, one scenario might be that the govt combines the existing players into a big govt controlled rating agency (listed in stock excahnges like several other PSUs).
It is highly unlikely that the govt would create a new credit agency out of thin air and simply let the existing agencies (with all their expertise etc) fade into oblivion.
Any thoughts on the likely scenarios ?
Regards,
Alok
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Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 6:29pm
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The govt may not create a new entity - but may somehow interfere/intervene. The exact outcome is unclear as its driven in the West.
As soon as there is govt oversight/intervention- things tend to not so easy.
Furthermore, if rating agencies can be sued (so far they were protected by law in US) - the friction cost of business goes up. Meaning they have to reserve for potentially being sued.
Something similar happend for years in the US with the tobacco/cigrette companies.
Investment 101 is the company is worth discounted backwords its future earnings. The more doubt/uncertainty - the more riskier the asset.
I doubt, if the company itself knows the answer how this is going to play out.
Recently, there was a case of Abu Dhabi based invetmnet firm suing one of the rating agencies.
------------- "Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet |
Posted By: Monkey
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 8:18pm
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I think these concerns are overblown.
See, there is lot of difference between what happened in West and Indian scenario. In western world, these agencies rated very complex securities like CDOs which were basically derivatives of mortgage securities, credit card receivables etc. This is what got them and many others in troubles. In India, what these agencies are doing is rating of plain vanila corporate bonds and deposits. There is hardly any risk in this business even in the west as these are straight forward products. Even if there is any risk due to provision of suing them, same can be taken care of by being little more conservative. That is all.
Also, complex derivatives are now history as there will not be any takers of such securities after burning fingers, hands and what not. Furthermore, it is far easier and sensible for governments to put controls on creation of such products (weapons of mass destruction as Bufftett says) rather than creating super regulatory structure for rating them. I think after the dust settles, cooler heads will prevail and result would be adaption of policies which discourages creation of such products.
In any case, it is far fetched to imagine such products being created in India at least not in horizon for a long long time.
Against this concern, just evaluate the size of opportunity India offers as corporate debt market is in very early stage of development, if you can call it even that. For all practical purpose, debt market is non-existent.
I do not think it would be wise to ignore such big opportunity for a concern which I believe is mostly hypothetical.
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Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 12:06pm
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Hi,
I think its not that much overblown, it could be partly. US punishes perpetrators very hard... Transparency and Rating Agency Act has been passed 49 to 14 majority http://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news14520/financial-services-committee-approves-credit-rating-agencies-reform-legislation http://www.dsnews.com/articles/house-panel-passes-credit-rating-agency-bill-that-imposes-liability-standard-2009-10-30 As I am currently unable to forecast the likely situation two years down, prevents me from investing. But right opportunity to enter will be with high uncertainty and low risk situation, as deepinsight is suggesting will also provide MarginOS, good time to buy it will be when Moody's is facing some major cases over the next 1-2 years that will also drag ICRA down. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 12:11pm
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Another question I have from someone who knows India market better is, how big are Onicra, Care, Duff & Phelps, Fitch and how much market share do they have vis a vis Crisil and Icra, what nature of work they do. Usually there is no money to be made with 6-7 players if they start undercutting.
Thanks |