Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin

Comparing Stocks within the same sector
 The Equity Desk Forum :Market Strategies :Our stocks. Buy hold or sell - The help ourselves Board :Comparing Stocks within the same sector
Message Icon Topic: HLL vs ITC which one should you hold? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Topic: HLL vs ITC which one should you hold?
    Posted: 23/Jul/2006 at 11:06pm
A question to ponder over. Why is there such a fascination for HLL? Company is reflecting highest RoE's (no scope for further increase) costs have been squeezed (little scope for further decrease) shifting balance of negotiation (the advent of large retailers will shift the bargaining power away from the FMCG guys, till now they were negotiating with small kirana wallas etc), negligible growth (10 - 15%). AT best it could give you market returns since growth cannot exceed this range), high PE (no scope for expansion as too much is factored into the price).
 
Is it all because of the product range, huge brands, MNC pedigree, stable business- something that would be alive even after 10 years.Surely markets could not be wrong for so long. I am not a HLL fan but still this stock perplexes me. What could HLL do right to double in 3 years. I do not know?


Edited by basant - 29/Jul/2006 at 10:35pm
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
The Lord
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 23/Jul/2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12
Quote The Lord Replybullet Posted: 23/Jul/2006 at 11:20pm
but why does hll have any problems with the big fish of retail business as they do keep hll product on their shelves and with such a fan following of diffrent hll brand dont you think it will be ill advice for the big retailers not to sell their products 
IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 23/Jul/2006 at 11:25pm
They would sell their products but the point is that all these while HLL was selling to several small kirana stores which had no bargaining power if you read the papers  reliance retail has already put in its application for a 40% gross margin - the normal trend was to give in 15% although nothing will chnage in the next one year but if we have a 5 year view there would be a big shift in bargaining power. ALl over the world the biggest company is neither UniLever nor P&G but Wal Mart and Carrefor.The retailers will have to sell HLL products but this arm twisting game may become messy towards all these larger FMCG companies dis-advantage. 
 
What do you do otherwise?
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 28/Jul/2006 at 2:30am

One of the basic facets of investing is to recognize growth. If two companies with equal management skills are available at similar PE’s then it would make sense to buy the one which has a clearer growth path set for itself. In HLL and ITC’s case the answers are not that easy to find. I have tried to initiate a discussion as to why ITC has always been cheaper to HLL on value terms. Is the market missing something or are the investors overlooking?

 

Company

Current Market price

EPS(FY07)

Sustainable growth for 2 years

PE

PEG

 RoE

ITC

162

7

20%

23

1.15

 26.5%

HLL

240

7

15%

33.50

2.23

 64%

 

PEG = Price Earning to growth

RoE = Return on Equity

 

Excise duty at Rs 6438 crores constitutes almost 40% to ITC’s total revenues of 16,224 crores. This means that the newer businesses that the tobacco leader is getting into will start making a significant impact to the bottom-line sooner then one could expect These businesses have started gaining traction and the company has diversified into foods, hotels, paper etc.The biggest kicker in growth for ITC might come in Fy 09 when its retail venture choupal sagar starts throwing back cash. By that time the non tobacco business might contribute to about 50% of the net revenues of the company. The salient features of the choupal sagar project are:

 

 Largest web based initiative for Information

  • dissemination and effective sourcing
  • Reaches 2k-5k population villages

Existing scale

  • �� 5,200 choupals & kiosks, across 31,000 villages
  • �� Reaching 3m farmers in UP, MP, Maharashtra and

Rajasthan

  • Investment by ITC, less than Rs300,000 per e-choupal

Information dissemination

  •  Knowledge, information and transaction through a single medium.
  •  Help improve productivity and hence returns
  • Intermediary services are imperative, not intermediaries
  •  De-link them from information chain
  •  Utilize their physical transmission & logistics services
  • Cost Arbitrage
  •  Higher Realization for farmers
  •  6% savings for ITC on procurement
  • Managed by Sanchalak (lead farmer) –
  •  Acts as an interface between farmer and computer
  •  Overcomes literacy barriers and is a low cost resource

Target: 1 e-choupal for every 5 villages

 

"The idea was to first increase the size of the rural wallet, then garner a larger share of it, Basic innovation in our business model is being able to do that in a commercially viable manner" S. Sivakumar, CEO, ITC International Business Division

 

Therefore even ITC appears to be on a far stronger wicket then HLL but if we look at the PE ratios of the two companies HLL lags behind. Then why is the market is willing to give HLL a much higher PE compared to ITC? This is so because HLL’s RoE is at 64% compares extremely favorably  to ITC’s 26.5%. RoE is one of the important indicators of how efficiently a company is using its capital. More over that ITC's past history of quite a large number of project failures does not impress the market either. These failures did not close down the company because the tobacco division was throwing up cash which was used to wash away the sins from other diversifications. Some misses from ITC over the decade have been:

·         Paper business

·         Finance

·         Aquaculture

·         Excise related problems

 

More importantly then the real fear in ITC is its business model. Yes, while cigarettes are one of the best known businesses to be in smoking is also injurious to health. Each year the Govt. has screwed the nuts and bolts out for the tobacco industry, railway stations, public parks, movie halls, smoking is being banned everywhere and excise duty increased.. In the US once companies like Philip Morris faced huge damages on account of death caused by smoking, investors’ world over have developed very cold feet towards tobacco stocks.

 

Sooner or later and it is certain the Indian legal system will have to change and once that happens ITC will also be one of the sufferers. This is also a major reason for a low PEG compared to HLL. While we can be sure that the Govt, will never ban things like having a bath and brushing the teeth and drinking tea on the breakfast table with bread and kissan jam we could not be that sure about whether the govt. would not go ahead a few steps more to ban smoking.

 

I am not suggesting that smoking will be banned but just that this subjective fear makes ITC available at a cheaper value to HLL. As they say there are no free lunches in the world. Large cap stocks rarely have pricing anomalies and what ever is available is sold for a reason. So while I favor ITC there is nothing to suggest that it is mis-priced. The stock carries a risk premium which might not work out to your disadvantage before you sell it out.



Edited by basant - 28/Jul/2006 at 2:36am
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
maag
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 15/Jul/2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Quote maag Replybullet Posted: 29/Jul/2006 at 9:32pm

This is interesting does this mean that investors should buy both of HLL and ITC or as you say you like ITC more that will be your choice. The ending seems a bit confusing as to what  should an investor buy ITC or HLL?

IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 29/Jul/2006 at 10:59pm
Maag
I hold neither one of them. the ides was to explain the disparity in pricing. But given a choice I would hold ITC rather then HLL  because even though the PE gap may remain you would actually be able to make money in ITC because of robust earning growth.
 
Therefore even with a PE gap of 10 (HLL's 33 to ITC's 23) the stock prices could move at the respective growth rates for each company inspite of ITC carrying the inherrent risk that I have mentioned above. 
 
In any case one should not play ITC for an upward revision in the PE multiple.
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
prashantmohta
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23/Jul/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1074
Quote prashantmohta Replybullet Posted: 29/Jul/2006 at 11:00pm
wonderful comparison between the two giants.but there is no point blaming the market,anyhow it is an eye opener for those who invest in fmcg stocks.
prashant,
IP IP Logged
tggyp
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 25/Jan/2007
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7
Quote tggyp Replybullet Posted: 22/Feb/2007 at 4:06pm
Dear TEDies
 
A Citigroup report on HLL today
 
From the last posts under this topic when ITC was at 160 levels and HLL at 240 levels we have come a long way since.
 
With an attractive dividend yield in HLL of nearly 3% isnt it a good defensive strategy to place abt 15% of ones portfolio in this steady compounder. The stock has hit 189 levels today.
 
Comments invited to this post .. Thanks
IP IP Logged
Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



This page was generated in 0.093 seconds.
Bookmark this Page