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Trading Psychology
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BubbleVision
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Quote BubbleVision Replybullet Topic: Technicals or Fundamentals.. What works?
    Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 3:12pm

We have seen a big debate about what works, where technicians were dubbed as jokers and the Fundamentals were dubbed as the only way to make money.

 

I would like to present my Experience with the markets, which confirms with the old age (now forgotten) theory of "Optimism for a Fundamentalist is the highest at the Tops while the optimism for a technician is the greatest at the bottom". 

 

By the way, anyone who says that He has not met a Rich Technician.. Send him to Ed Seykota, Ray Simmons, Martin Zwing, or even Atul Suri

 

 

Let me add sentence in the beginning "Mind is like a parachute.. Best used when open".

 

 

We have seen a big bull markets in the equities since May-2003, when the Sensex was at 2900, while the corresponding level for the Nifty was 900. Since then we have had Three big Corrections.. In May 2004, Oct 2005, and again in May 2006. After all the three big falls the Technicians said that a new Bear Market might have begun, while the Fundamental guys recommended "BUY THE DIPS". The markets, thanks to the optimism all around, have bounced back extremely sharply to new highs, making the

technicians eat their words and making the Fundamentalists look like god and the only real analysts.

 

 

Now flash back to 2000.. The markets had a Plunge in Jan 2000, The Technicians called for a bear market and i clearly remember that the Same Fundamentalists called "Buy the Dips" (Ask BasantJi, does he endorses that or not), but the markets kept dipping. There were rallies in Apr 2000, Dec 2000, Post sept-11 in 2001 and again in Nov-Dec-2002, which were followed up by new deeper dips which ended when the Infy Crashed, which turned out to be the end of the bear Market of 2000-2003. Technicians (who had caught the entire downmove) were hailed as Gods, while the Fundamentalists were dubbed as "Jokers".

 

 

The optimism for Fundamentals as a way of analysis is the highest at the Top.. When the most required friend is a technician, while the optimism for a technician is the highest at bear market bottoms, when the public requires a fundamentalist But Public, As per say get it wrong, as a result always suffers because they believe in the wrong person at the wrong time.

 

A good stock always makes money, a bull or a bear market (Infy made money but could you have slept with a stock down 80% from the high after the Infy crashed in 2003) I bet every one sold out after that day. Those who didn’t, could proudly say that they have worked hard for their money

 

Bottomline.. There is no holy grail, which will tell you when to get out (or get in) at what point of time.. Believe in yourself and then trade wisely and trade well.

There is another personal experience.. A smart technician (who don’t come in the media) can make you money in a Bull market, But unfortunately, the same cannot be said about a Fundamentalist in a bear market (imagine him telling client that he liked the Funda of any stock at 800, while the same stock is now a short at 600). I bet he will lose the client.

  

Everything works..what matters is what works for you. (My 2 cents)
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!
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basant
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 3:32pm
Fundamentalists called "Buy the Dips" (Ask BasantJi, does he endorses that or not), but the markets kept dipping.
 
Yes they did recommend buying. The new theory doing the rounds then was OK these software companies will not get new orders but people would still be learning software so why not buy NIIT. All college goers do their courses. And who said this Shankar Sharma did. pashupati Advani (I am not that sure but he did), Abhay Aima (Head of some thinga t HDFC Bank now used to sport a pony tail then).
 
Now how do I remember all these guys that is because I bought into that story and the stock started falling and this logic caught fire and I averaged upto Rs 150 . The first stock was bought at Rs 750. I still feel that it was an error in judgement but that time it seemed so so real.....
 
So if you can call these people irrational what would you call Rakesh Jhunjhunwala who also bought NIIT was rumoured to have been under severe payment crisis as the stock tanked 50% mid 2002.
 
Broadly most of the technicians do not know their job while the proportion of fundamental analysts not knowing their job is lesser and that skews the whole picture.The error lies in judgement and the probability of being wrong in TA is more as there are a larger number of people who do not know their job. The structure, the asian indices, the technofundas are all craps but the asian indices guy who looks at trend was the FIRST to blow the whistle then. If you are consistent someday you will be right!
 
My new quote"
 
"I have not met a rich technician*"
 
                                          * Conditions apply
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BubbleVision
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Quote BubbleVision Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 3:50pm
BTW, i am not talking about the technicians, who come on the TV and know nothing. One cant really paint all the techncians and the Funda will the same brush. The point i am trying to make is that Everything works..what matters is what works for you. and Hard Work pays off.
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:43pm
Technician is playing on the probability, there is a 50:50 chance of his prediction being right. Even if he is right say 55% times, he can make money. But then he would have to be disciplined to accept and book losses whenever he is wrong. Normal human beings book profits too early, and allow losses to run, in fact they average down the losing position. I am talking about normal humans which is 99% of the population.
 
And besides, the study of charts is basically on a presumption that historical patterns would repeat, and it is good with hindsight knowledge. Those head-shoulder, cup-saucer, double tops/bottoms, neck lines etc etc are all possible to view after the event.
 
I have also not met a rich technician. Sorry, in fact I had met one: Doctor who nearly stopped practising medicine and entered capital markets during early 2005, studied charts, was claiming to be an expert on Candlesticks/Elliot Waves and what not. He made huge amount of money till about April 2006 playing technically and into stock futures as we as Nifty. He was obviuosly long in May and received such a jolt that he is out of market now back to his clinic. Now he is repenting & blaming the casino!
 
The BEST AND RAREST combination would be a sound fundamental analyst having technical knowledge and applying the same for his entry and exits (sorry not timing the markets, but having disciplined buying and profit booking strategies). I'm yet to meet one.
 
I am yet to meet a person who has consistently made overall 20-25% CAGR returns in the market over a period of 10-15 years. Now there are exceptions, but very very very few: you can count them on fingers.
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:46pm
I believe "value investing" is of foremost importance and tha is it for me!
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:49pm
If you make 26% pa annualised for 30 years you can turn a Rs 1 lac investment into Rs 10 crores - just as you approach retirement. Very very tough to do that Over a period of 5 to 10 years with various new sectors opening up and companies getting into the global league it could be possible but when we talk about 20 - 30 years that means no technology, no retail, no telecom Can any one do that in cement, FMCG, pharma etc etc. 30 years means we have only the mature businesses to play with and that would take some doing.
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:52pm
"but when we talk about 20 - 30 years that means no technology, no retail, no telecom"
 
I didnt understand this point. These sectors wont be there on the top 3 sectors  or you meant something else?
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:54pm

I believe it is important especially now to find value investment ideas as that way we can make some multibaggers and even if our returns from mature businesses later on decreases to let's say 10-15% p.a. the average would work out to 20% or something?

 
Whats your view Basant jee?
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it
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