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Quote value Replybullet Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 10:02pm
Is it pre fees or post fees. Pre tax or post tax?

Originally posted by itpro

I had started PMS in April 2008. I dindn't know much of the investment and hence thought this might be the way to go.

This has seen a couple of slowdown ( started in April 2008 ). It had lost 30% during the 2008 but then recovered.

 

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=380>
<COLGROUP>
<COL style="WIDTH: 149pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 7277" width=199>
<COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64>
<COL style="WIDTH: 88pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4278" width=117><T>
<T>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">Period</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl66">Portfolio</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl66">Nifty</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">1 Month</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl67">8.84%</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl67">6.67%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">1 Year</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl67">22.90%</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl67">11.67%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">Since Performance Reporting
( Annualized. from april 2008 )
</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl67">18.86%</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl67">7.49%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">6 Months</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl67">1.28%</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl67">-4.08%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl65">3 Months</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl67">-1.38%</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl67">-3.87%</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>
 

 

 

 

Following is the portfolio

 

                      
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=380>
<COLGROUP>
<COL style="WIDTH: 149pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 7277" width=199>
<COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64>
<COL style="WIDTH: 88pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4278" width=117><T>
<T>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="WIDTH: 149pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" width=199 height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri> </TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">   </SPAN>%G/L</TD>
<TD style="WIDTH: 88pt" width=117 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">         </SPAN>%of Portfolio</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Hexaware Technologies</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>45.14%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.72%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Eicher Motors</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>56.13%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.58%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Tata Consultancy Services<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>268.60%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.53%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>E Clerx Services</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>43.44%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.51%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Crompton Greaves</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>155.14%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.24%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Cadila Healthcare</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>67.20%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>4.04%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>M&M Financial Services</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>85.84%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.98%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Yes Bank</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>19.84%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.98%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Motherson Sumi Systems</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>51.10%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.96%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Ipca Laboratories</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>6.45%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.91%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Tata Motors DVR</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>28.62%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.78%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Bank Of Baroda</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>42.67%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.63%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Infosys Technologies</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>124.08%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.53%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Indraprastha Gas</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>15.82%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.52%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Havells India</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>-9.22%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.31%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>United Phosphorous</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>-2.56%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.19%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Akzo Nobel India</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>1.34%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.17%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Ttk Prestige</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>67.94%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.09%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>BGR ENERGY SYSTEMS LIMITED<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.94%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.01%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Opto Circuits I</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>8.74%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>3.00%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Bajaj Electricals</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>14.39%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>2.96%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>HDFC</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>49.92%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>2.91%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Cox And Kings</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>-19.50%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>2.88%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Borosil Glass Works</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>-21.61%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>2.22%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Reliance Industries</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>68.71%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>1.70%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>Aia Engineering</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>2.45%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>1.54%</TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
<TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 ="xl63"><FONT face=Calibri>ICRA</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>-12.29%</TD>
<TD align=right ="xl64"><FONT face=Calibri>0.45%</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>
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itpro
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Quote itpro Replybullet Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 11:50am
This is pre-fees , Pre-tax.
 
If I do reverse calculation with the exact amount in my account,  then I am getting a return of 50% in 3 years. i.e. A CAGR of 14.42% ( exact 3 years ).
 
Mangement fees is 3% flat. With these many scrips it is becoming like a Mutual fund. Not sure if Mutual fund is better.
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master
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Quote master Replybullet Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by itpro

CAGR of 14.42% ( exact 3 years ).
 
 
For 3 years gone by, CAGR of 15% is not bad, usual MF types. 
 
In broader markets, there are large number of stocks which have given >100% + returns post-2008. But in your portfolio except TCS/infy/CG, there are none ( i mean no midcaps or small caps that are big winners). Is it then correct to say they churn the smallcap holdings rather fast?
 
Is there any discussion with you anytime on your risk appetite etc which influences the selling strategy? What's the tax liability like in % terms?
 
Respond only if you're ok with sharing it.
Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago.
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subu76
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Quote subu76 Replybullet Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by master

In broader markets, there are large number of stocks which have given >100% + returns post-2008. But in your portfolio except TCS/infy/CG, there are none ( i mean no midcaps or small caps that are big winners). Is it then correct to say they churn the smallcap holdings rather fast?
 
 
Yeah and if they indeed do churn mid caps fast then it looks like they sell all losers before sending out reports. In a fast moving portfolio how can one have only 3-4 stocks out of 20-30 stocks in the red


Edited by subu76 - 07/Apr/2011 at 12:01pm
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Quote barla Replybullet Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 12:34pm
any idea what is the churn ratio of the protfolio.
 
You have to compare wiht mutual funds post tax. As MF are tax free.
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itpro
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Quote itpro Replybullet Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:07pm
@ master: By defination this PMS was a growth with a mix of large cap and mid cap.
@ barla : Churn is low...  You are correct ... if we compare with MF then it should be tax free. So that way returns are low.
@ Subu 76: Reports is available on-line and I can get portfolio which is 3-5 days old. So there is nothing like monthly report etc... so no chance of managing the portfolio for reporting.
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Catalyst
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Quote Catalyst Replybullet Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:15pm

Originally posted by Subu76

Yeah and if they indeed do churn mid caps fast then it looks like they sell all losers before sending out reports. In a fast moving portfolio how can one have only 3-4 stocks out of 20-30 stocks in the red

Too much of skepticism I would say…a client can ask for a report at any point of time…so where is the question of selling out losers before sending the report, it seems more like of conclusion drawing the question…just because there are only 3-4 stocks in the red so they must be churning big time…

And what is wrong in selling losers…isn’t that the way it should be, here we preach Peter Lynch and when somebody follows his philosophy of watering the flowers and cutting the weeds…we criticize…

And isn’t the overall returns take care of the churning part…would someone be happy with mediocre returns just because the churning ratio is lower…

Originally posted by master

In broader markets, there are large number of stocks which have given >100% + returns post-2008. But in your portfolio except TCS/infy/CG, there are none ( i mean no midcaps or small caps that are big winners). Is it then correct to say they churn the smallcap holdings rather fast?

 
I think the comparison is not apple to apple…while there are lots of stocks which have given >100% returns post 2008…he started his portfolio in Apr08…before the big correction…so the portfolio performance should be considered in that backdrop and not selectively by choosing different time frame…if you are looking at post 2008 performance you should compare the stocks performance from 01-Jan-09…which he might be able to give…

At this point of time it would be suffice to say if you look at the performance since inception of his portfolio (Apr08 in this case) 18.9% v/s 7.5%...its quite good…

Why not other people also share their PMS portfolio performance (if there are any) of last one year…so we could have some better apple to apple comparisons of PMS service providers in the market.


Edited by Catalyst - 08/Apr/2011 at 12:25pm
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Quote subu76 Replybullet Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Catalyst

Originally posted by Subu76

Yeah and if they indeed do churn mid caps fast then it looks like they sell all losers before sending out reports. In a fast moving portfolio how can one have only 3-4 stocks out of 20-30 stocks in the red

 

Too much of skepticism I would say…a client can ask for a report at any point of time…so where is the question of selling out losers before sending the report, it seems more like of conclusion drawing the question…just because there are only 3-4 stocks in the red so they must be churning big time…

And what is wrong in selling losers…isn’t that the way it should be, here we preach Peter Lynch and when somebody follows his philosophy of watering the flowers and cutting the weeds…we criticize…

And isn’t the overall returns take care of the churning part…would someone be happy with mediocre returns just because the churning ratio is lower…

 
My comment was in the context of master's comment. itpro clarified that is not the case.
 
On you points in favour of churning
 
I think applying Peter Lynch's quote may not be correct since stock market losers and market volatility are 2 different things.
 
Wb and PL have both said lower activity usually leads to better returns in stocks


Edited by subu76 - 08/Apr/2011 at 12:18pm
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