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Message Icon Topic: PE de-rating vs. PE re-rating. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Shadofax
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Quote Shadofax Replybullet Posted: 25/Aug/2010 at 1:22am
Hope the logic explained in the Case1,2,3 makes sense. Would love if someone can highlight some serious faults. except for arguments like "markets wont give pe of 30x to company that grows at 30% because it was previously growing at 90%"
 
I mean .. is there any major flow in the logic.
 
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I heard Basantjee saying that in this way the risk is reduced to a great extent (capital protection shown in case 1) and there is a scope of huge upside ... Have I understood it correctly?


Edited by Shadofax - 25/Aug/2010 at 1:26am
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basant
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 25/Aug/2010 at 5:35am
Sometimes abnormally high PEs can hit back irrespective of growth and that happens when growth slackens as per market expectations so you make a list of consensus estimates first and then take  a view as to whether the company will beat consensus - as I keep doing with TITAN.

Also try reading David Dreman's Contrarion Invetsment strategies also. Its a fantastic book on high and low PE investing!!!



Originally posted by Shadofax

wnside from cmp]
.
 
So what I mean is that there is decent capital protection here and as Basantjee says (also in transcripts) that the risk is to a great extent gone in high growth companies.
 

Also Basantjee ... to sit tight after all the arguments needs conviction ... And it would be great if you can highlight something on it.
 
Also how do you predict or roughly gauge the Sales growth? Do you?
 
Something like meeting distributor of 1 region and assuming the same is repeated in every region ... is it safe to do that?
 
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Quote sameerde Replybullet Posted: 06/Aug/2011 at 12:46pm

hi, i had a thought about valuations and how to be a bit more specific. Valuations have always been a point of debate. How much P/E, P/BV etc? DCF is very tricky. Forecasting cash flow over next 20 years is a mechanical exercise.

What I am experimenting with is as below:

  1. Take current EPS/FCFPS and derive earnings yield (E/P or inverse of P/E). FCFPS = Free Cash Flow per Share
  2. Compare that with alternative yield that can be earned e.g. FD at 9.5% or some other investments as an option. Its preferable to take post tax at highest marginal tax rate=9.5%*(1-30.3%)=6.62% since that is what an investor will get in hand.
  3. Take the next 3 years’ EPS/FCFPS (before raising debt—else company can keep raising debt in excess of needs)
  4. The reason that current earnings yield in most cases will be lower than 6.62% (= 100/6.62=~15 p/e) is that there is a growth component in earnings. So if a company is valued at 18 p/e, earnings yield is 5.55% (1/18%). Therefore if somebody invests in FD at 6.62%, then that is the rate the earnings yield must reach in 3 years time. Any growth in earnings after that is a bonus.
  5. So at 5.55% yield or 18x P/E, earnings yield needs to grow at 6% pa to reach 6.62% in 3 years time (5.55%x1.06x1.06x1.06=6.6%)
  6. If EPS/FCFPS is growing at a rate higher than 6%. For instance at 10%, then we can discount back 3 years to find out the growth rate that earnings yield or earning must be such that if they grow at 10%, the earnings or yield will be 6.62% in 3 years’ time. Therefore 6.62/(1+10%)^3)=4.97% or a P/E of ~20x (1/4.97%).
  7. So we are effectively paying a higher P/E for growth
  8. Once we have a target price, it will give us an upside from CMP and we can then build in a margin of safety since the price is a target for achieving the expected growth rate.
  9. We can combine this with other metrics like P/B, DCF to see how different the values are and if required take a weighted average etc. It then becomes a subjective preference. Additionally, if on analysis we find that for instance RoE is lower than a threshold of ~20% then we can increase the asking rate or the target yield by 50 bps or 100 bps. Similarly, if its RoE/RoCE, working capital is exceptional, then we can lower the asking rate by 50 bps etc.
  10. This is not without its contradictions though. For instance at a P/E of 20x in above example, PEG is 2x for a growth rate of 10% when ideally it should be 1x.

Pls let me know about your feedback on the same. I am sure there must be some thing I may be missing but haven’t got around to it yet.

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sumitraepic
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Quote sumitraepic Replybullet Posted: 09/Nov/2015 at 3:45pm
It is important to find that PE de-rating and re-rating. When PE expands money may be loss. So be careful while using the PE contracts.
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