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Message Icon Topic: PE de-rating vs. PE re-rating. Post Reply Post New Topic
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wiseowl
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Quote wiseowl Replybullet Posted: 03/Dec/2009 at 12:29pm
IBM is cheaper than Infosys!

...the headline is quite uncharacteristic of BL
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prabhakarkudva
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Quote prabhakarkudva Replybullet Posted: 04/Jun/2010 at 10:16am
I feel PE is decided by two factors:

1. Earnings growth rate
2. Perception of the durability of earnings(For how long the market thinks can earnings grow at the above rate).

So the real bet is this:

Many of us at TED are betting that Hawkins' earning is durable while the market doesn't think so yet.So one of the two of us is going to be wrong.That game b/w you,the individual and the market as a whole, is at the heart of investing.
Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time.
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nitin_jagtap
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Quote nitin_jagtap Replybullet Posted: 04/Jun/2010 at 10:28am

Mail from Kulman  on components of PE as advocated by Ram Charan

" To create a higer PE ratio you have to show financial markets     that you are earning a solid return on your investors money and growing profitably  and that investors can count on you to keep up the good work in the future ....here hows the market make the judgement  -
 
Components of PE Ratio
 
Top line growth
Expansion of margins
Velocity (asset turnover, working cap ratios)
Capital investment
Leadership
 


Edited by nitin_jagtap - 04/Jun/2010 at 10:37am
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basant
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 04/Jun/2010 at 11:15am
Pearls of wisdom. This brings objectivity into a subjective topic.
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hit2710
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Quote hit2710 Replybullet Posted: 05/Jun/2010 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by prabhakarkudva

Hitji,
When was investing not about predicting?Although about the other walks of life i do agree


What I say is while predicting one has to tone down one's expectations to escape disappointments. And when one buys very high PE stocks just as many people did in educomp,(currently in titan--although I have all the chances to be wrong here, but better safe than sorry) etc, chances of getting burnt are very bad.
Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart.
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prabhakarkudva
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Quote prabhakarkudva Replybullet Posted: 05/Jun/2010 at 12:40pm
Very high PE has to been seen in conjunction to growth rates which we are predicting.But what we need to understand is that we are being reasonable when we are saying that we expect Titan to grow at 30% because:

1)It has been growing at that rate in the past
2)There is a good chance that it will do so in the future too since the opportunity is there and so is the expertise(management).

Now if we can find another retailer with Titan like prospects and business model(super high ROCEs)which is trading at 20 PE,then yes Titan is riskier than this hypothetical company.But of you are comparing Titan to a 30% grower in some other industry with totally different dynamics which is available at 20 PE then it is fair neither to Titan nor our hypothetical company.

Also one loses equal money if PE falls from 40 to 20 and if it falls from 15 to 7.And very rarely will a 40 PE stock fall to a sub 10 PE.Expecting a 40 PE stock to be any riskier just because the absolute PE is higher is not correct in my opinion.Buying low PE stocks is no safer than buying a high PE stock,when business model is analyzed properly.But lets just agree to disagree cos finally its about one's comfort level

PS:Titan is just an example to illustrate the point.

Edited by prabhakarkudva - 05/Jun/2010 at 12:42pm
Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time.
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motiwebmaster
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Quote motiwebmaster Replybullet Posted: 10/Jun/2010 at 2:59pm
I think this is good example for De-rating and Re-rating.Today 10th June
in early afternoon trade as the market rebounded from lower level on higher US index futures. The market shrugged off lower European stocks.


Edited by motiwebmaster - 10/Jun/2010 at 3:00pm
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Shadofax
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Quote Shadofax Replybullet Posted: 25/Aug/2010 at 1:05am
In crores 2009 - 10 2008 - 09 2007 - 08 2006 - 07 2005 - 06
Total Income 274.02 195.82 57.9 43.81 31.55
Expenditure -203.03 -157.6 -50.03 -38.65 -26.03
Net Profit 45.27 23.81 4.54 4.27 2.48
Growth in  2009 - 10 2008 - 09 2007 - 08 2006 - 07
Income 40% 238% 32% 39%
Expenditure 29% 215% 29% 48%
Net Profit 90% 424% 6% 72%
.
 
Current MCAP =  2300 crores 
Trailing profit  =  45 crores
Trailing PE Ratio: 51x
 
Let us just play with some numbers:
 
So without doing any real market analysis and product analysis, let us work with a couple of scenarios
Case 1: 30% profit growth and maintains a few years
 - FY11 PAT = 58 crores
And because the growth has gone down drastically
 - the trailing PE = 30x  (for argument sake one can even say it can become 25x but I would like be less pessimistic Wink)
- Therefore, MCAP = 1750 crores [24% downside from cmp] ... after 1 year.
 
Case 2: 40% profit growth and maintains a few years
 - FY11 PAT = 63 crores
 - the trailing PE = 40x 
- Therefore, MCAP = 2520 crores [10% upside from cmp]
 
Case 3: 50% profit growth and maintains a few years
 - FY11 PAT = 67.5 crores
 - the trailing PE = 50x 
- Therefore, MCAP = 3375 crores [46% upside from cmp]
 
------------------
So basically the assumptions can make us rich and poor like anything.
 
The questions now comes is:
What can be the sales growth for a couple of years? The answer lies in understanting the pointers below:
1. Understanding the market size of this kind of products (Suger Free and Nutralite) and checking out
2. Entry Barriers for others to enter this business
3. Existing Competitors
4. Capital Requirement to grow
5. <<some one please add more comprehensive parameters>>
 
----
 
Also one more thing ... In the case 1 (with 30% growth) above where there seems to be a 24% loss at the end of 1 year ... if we keep the stock for 1 more year and if the company does 30% growth for FY12 ... one will break even at the end of 2 years.
 
So what I mean is that there is decent capital protection here and as Basantjee says (also in transcripts) that the risk is to a great extent gone in high growth companies.
 
Not to forget that these kind of stocks can give a +ve surprises.
 
What if it gives a 60-70% growth in a particular year?
 
That is why I feel that more time needs to be spent in answering the above question ... and a few more that people will add.
 
Then we just have to sit tight.
 
-------------
 
P.S: I think I am making sense but there is a possible that I might be missing something big and the above theory goes total false...
Senior members .. Am I missing something badly?
 
------------
 
 
Also Basantjee ... to sit tight after all the arguments needs conviction ... And it would be great if you can highlight something on it.
 
Also how do you predict or roughly gauge the Sales growth? Do you?
 
Something like meeting distributor of 1 region and assuming the same is repeated in every region ... is it safe to do that?
 
$
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