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omshivaya
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 1:50am
Excellent post basant sir! Your posts are really inspiring truly! Thanks again for being candid enough to share it
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it
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basant
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 11:26am

Why it does not make sense to get into cash partially

 

Of late there had been a lot of chatter about booking partial profits – get 25% into cash and keep the balance 75% into equities. This strategy essentially indicates two piquant flaws:

1)     that the investor is unsure about the future

2)    That he is broadly bullish (75%) and partly bearish (25%)

 

I did this calculation when many of my acquaintances went into this 25% cash business and this is what I got:

 

1)     No one sold off at the top the chatter started well before we had made the top at around 11,000 or thereabouts

2)    I have taken an investor who sells out at an index level of 11,000.

3)    The portfolio size is assumed to be Rs 500,000.

4)     It is assumed that:

  Case A: He missed the bottom. That is exactly                       

              what happened

            Case B: He entered at the rock bottom level of         

                         the index at 8800

 

Case (A)

 

 

Investor A: Switching between cash and stocks

Investor B: Remaining fully invested

Portfolio Value at an index level of 11,000

Rs 500,000

Rs 500,000

Strategy for A :Get 25% into cash:

 

 

New Asset allocation:

 

 

Cash

125,000

 

Equity

375,000

500,000

Subsequent fall to 8800

20%

20%

Portfolio value at 8800:

 

 

Cash

125,000

0

Equity (375,000x 80%)

300,000

 

Equity (500,000 x 80%)

 

400,000

Total Value at 8800

425,000

400,000

Loss from the top

15%

20%

 

 

Therefore by getting 25% into cash you were able to relatively out perform the other person by only 5%. That is not what we are in the markets for.

 

Case - B

Now assume that the investor has caught the cycle correctly (next to impossible)

 

Portfolio value at 8800:

Investor A: Switching between cash and stocks

Investor B: Remaining fully invested

Cash

125,000

0

Equity (375,000x 80%)

300,000

 

Equity (500,000x 80%)

 

400,000

Total Value at 8800

425,000

400,000

Take a ride back to the sensex at 11,000 425,000x125%

531,250

 

400,000 x 125%

 

500,000

Initial capital

500,000

500,000

Net gain made in the entire process

31,250

0

Percentage of net gain made

6.25%

0

 

Now why would I do all this for a mere 6.25% gain in my portfolio when the chances of missing the entire rally are far more then the odds of getting back in.

 

What has gone wrong in the above computation? The above computation reflects a confused investor. Who is predominantly bullish (75%) and partially bearish (25%). The market never pays for confusion and chaos. More often then not this investor will never heed to his mistake and always justify why prices should fall a bit more. When prices do start moving finally he would feel comfortable in getting into those stocks that have not moved – that would disturb matters further.

 
I normally like to look at stocks that I hold not the markets. If the stocks that I hold appear trifle over valued but the next year's growth is strong enough I wait for the stock to remain cheap.

Where does the problem lie? The problem does not lie because the markets are going down. It lies in our choice of stocks. The real crash management system will have 20% of the portfolio dedicated to solid long term secular growth stories like HDFC, HDFC Bank. These stocks are least effected at the times of a crash and do recover back very fast. Investors are normally undecided as how much to allocate between the different companies. The third grade B!/B2 scrip from the BSE find more exposure then is warranted. This falls faster and harder while the recovery is slow..

If investors get worried about an impending crash the best way is to sell out of these speculative buildups and get into solid blue chips which will out perform the markets in case it decides to tank.

So I would suggest that crash management systems lies in enhancing the quality of the portfolio rather then changing the asset class per se.

Conclusion: Even a best case scenario would have made a gain of 6.25%. Now people did tell me that some stocks went off 50% from the top and we could have made 50% in them so in that case our existing portfolio (75%) would have been affected by 50% as well.

No one, I repeat no one can extrapolate the market’s behavior because the markets run on the collective wisdom of all the participants. This “collective wisdom” is influenced by subjective factors of fear and greed.

As long as participants try to measure the tendency they would succeed but it is only when they set out an inflexible mathematical formula (like many of them did in June) they will fall to the ground.


Edited by basant - 10/Sep/2006 at 11:48am
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 11:38am
Basantjee
 
Your calculation shows that there is not much of difference in gains by trying to book partial profits.
 
Now keeping this "crash management" discussion aside, I would like your opinion on cashing out partially when our price objectives are met.
 
You may see my earlier post on this. Await your response.
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 12:05pm
Basantjee
 
Reproducing the extract of what I want to say. This is not about "crash managment" or "cash strategy" but about selling when we achieve objective:
 
As for me, I never said we should time the market. Nobody can and will be able to time the market. You are NEVER allowed to buy at bottom or sell at tops.
 
My point was to have profit booking strategies. Human mind goes back to the history and tries to link events. That's what lands us in trouble most of the times.
 
RJ may not sell Pantaloon because of various reasons, his dividend yield (at his cost of acquisition) still may be more than RBI bond! By just selling a small portion, he has all the balance shares FREE!
 
Again let me emphasize that we're all mortals and have limited resources, it is a good idea to emulate these legends. But can we control our emotions and buy when everyone is selling? How many of us bought when there was down circuit on exchange? 
 
Having said that, I have no doubts on fundamentally strong companies in India, they would continue to deliver 15-20% CAGR over the next 4/5 years and I am happy staying invested in them.
 
My suggestion is just as you have "buy" strategies, have a disciplined "sell" strategy.
 
It could be partial profit booking, with which your cost of acquisition also comes down and you would be able to ride further boom in that particular stock if there is steam left or if by chance you are exiting early.
 
The "sell" decision could be based on your having achieved expected rate of return on that stock, or the markets over-pricing having run-up too much.
 
For example, hypothetically, as per this forum's analysis AB Nuvo's fair value is Rs. 1600 against CMP of Rs. 850 taking into account value unlocking due to Idea etc which may happen in next 12/18 months. If due to irrational exuberance, market discounts the view now itself and price shoots up to Rs. 1600 before Diwali, wouldn't it be wiser to book partial profits, take our capital out? 
 
Just listen to real-life stories of "investors" whose portfolio value crashed to almost zero from Crores during dot-com bubble.
 
We all admire Buffet, Lynch, Jhunjhunwala and wish to emulate them. They are extra-ordinary gentlemen. We, as small investors (I do not know about others in this forum), have limited resources. We need to have disciplined "exit" strategies.
 
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 1:16pm

Thanks for organizing everything so well.Some how I have never tried to do a partial profit booking. Essentially that is because of these reasons:

 

1) You would partially book profits only when you do not know why the stock has gone up.

 

2) In case you do the stock has become over valued. Many stocks become overvalued and remain there for the entire length of the bull cycle. We did a discussion on infosys traded at a PE of 50+ for 3- 4 years.

 

3) Again if you hold a concentrated portfolio you would be able to follow the stocks in such detail that each movement in stock price could be explained whether it is being fundamentally led or market led. Please do not confuse this with trying to explain movements - I am trying to say the origin of the movement.

 

4) If you have a diverse portfolio then tracking each stock becomes difficult in that case we should follow the sell on each rise strategy.

 

5) Normal convention says not to have more then 10% in each stock and 25% in any sector. So we would need to sell when prices go up to follow the convention.  But a skewed portfolio will move faster both ways.

 

6) I assume that normally people would like to hold 15 – 25 stocks across different industries and companies. In that case we should get into a partial profit booking mode.

 

7) In case we hold only a few and are planning for an event CAS or Retail boom then just think that had I started selling from Rs 100 I would have been out of the stock at Rs 500; average selling price Rs 250. Today it is about 7 times more.

 

8) I could hold on since I could research well and I could research well since I had no other stocks to research. SO you see it is a chicken and the egg race. Once you research you develop conviction and hold a few and vice versa.

 

9) Never followed the historic pricing method. Always thought that our purchase price becomes irrelevant the moment the trade is executed.

 

10) I doubt if  Rakesh jhunjhunwala is playing for dividends. If Pantaloon gives dividend it will make an EPS if it does that stock will go up or at most remain so there is nothing to worry on the downside or about getting an RBI return. Once we start thinking on those lines then it means we are waiting for the stock to go down.

 

11) Personally I would wait for fundamentals to show negative strain before selling rather then wait for prices to rise. Yes, If they rise abnormally by say 50 times forward then one could think but with growth stocks the story gets cheaper if can get the visibility correct and stay with the sector leaders.Read about Fisher to know more on this

 
12) Finally in investing we should do only those things that suit our mental make up


Edited by basant - 11/Sep/2006 at 1:18pm
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omshivaya
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 1:28pm
12) Finally in investing we should do only those things that suit our mental make up
 
I feel this is one the best points you made!
 
Nice post as always!
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Quote investor Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 4:03pm
your meeting with Prannoy is very siginficant - remember in Peter Lynch's book, how he talks about finding more about the strenth of a company's
potential when its competitors talk highly of it.
In fact he even mentions a case where he went to meet the management
of one particular company in which he wanted to invest, came out after
that meeting and called his broker to buy as many shares as possible
of their competitor, simply because the mgmnt he went to meet kept
talking a lot about that competitor. So your case is also something like that!
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Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 11/Sep/2006 at 5:35pm

Booking profits-that is usually bad unless valuations have gone way ahead of reality(because good stocks usually run up in the long run and as Phil Fisher Says something like- unexpected good news keeps coming up) unless you are sharp enough to be able to latch on to something better consistently and that is very difficult but achievable for a period as I know it.



Edited by Ajith - 11/Sep/2006 at 5:37pm
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