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Cement will boom but what about the stocks?

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Printed Date: 28/Apr/2024 at 12:58pm


Topic: Cement will boom but what about the stocks?
Posted By: basant
Subject: Cement will boom but what about the stocks?
Date Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:10pm

Cement will boom but what about the stocks?

 

One of the most difficult things affecting a commodity business is the lack of entry barriers. When prices rise existing companies increase capacity utilization and expansion while newer ones rush to set up green field plants.

 

A similar situation could be witnessed in the Indian cement industry.

Many of the top companies are working under an operating margin of 30%-40%. That means an initial investment into setting up a plant is recoverable in 2.5-3 years. It would be difficult for these margins to sustain an themselves.

 

While Cement demand may remain robust and the industry would continue to chug along well my sense is that the days of making abnormal gains from cement stocks are nearing closure. With the kind of base these cement companies would develop in Fy 07 it would really take some doing to show y-o-y growth. A Cement bag is sold at Rs 200 right now in many parts of the country and I was told that at Rs 240 it would become viable to import the commodity from China. SO that prohibits further price increases.

 

Over tyhe next two years India is expected to increase its Cement capacity by around 45% to 230 million tonnes from 160 million ton .This is being done at an average cost of US $ 70 per ton on a replacement cost basis the present valuations of most of these cement companies (EV of more then twice the replacement) seem to have become unsustainable.

 

Company

Capacity expansion over the next 2 years

Grasim

8 million tonnes

UltraTech

4 million tonnes

ACC and Gujarat Ambuja

10 million tonnes

Jai Prakash

8.5 million tonnes

Shree Cement

3.4 million tonnes

JK Lakshmi

4.0 million tonnes

Madras Cement

4.0 million tonnes

 

 

Enterprise value per ton (current capacity) against the replacement cost of US $ 70 per ton.

ACC

US $ 215

Birla Corp

US $ 80

Gujarat Ambuja

US $ 210

Shree Cement

US $ 195

Ultra Tech Cement

US $ 135

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Over the last few years the operating margins of many of these companies have expanded two fold. SO while the cement sales may go up the growth in profitability from such higher base seems difficult to sustain. The scope for further expansion in margins is limited because cement is a commodity and the pricing power that commodities command are restricted.

 

Operating margin expansion

 

Fy 07 Q1

Historic

ACC

31.5%

14.93   Mar 02

Birla Corp

29.3%

5.9%   Mar 02

Gujarat Ambuja

38.2%

     32.59% Mar 01

Shree Cement

44.5%

27.49   Mar 02

Ultra Tech Cement

31.77%

14.06%  Mar 04

JK Lakshmi

27.8%

6.26%   Sep 01

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
We may have a situation where companies report good numbers but since the market would be worried about Fy 09 it would refuse to assign a higher PE to these stocks. In fact the PE ratios might actually contract with an EPS expansion leading to market rates of return for the large cement companies.
 
Many investors are of the view that this rally could continue for 6 months but my argument is that when ever any thing seems so short lived the stock prices discounts it much ahead of that.

 

So while Cement may continue to grow the real money has been made in most of these stocks and from now on unless one is playing a company specific theme as such the stocks would tend to move more in line with the market and the sensitivity to any earnings surprise (on the downside) is high. On the other hand increase in EPS would be compensated by declining PE’s.

 

Generally the demand for Cement is slated in terms of 1.5 times the GDP which in this case should be 12%. But since there is a huge construction activity in progress we may see a demand increase of about 15% also. But the huge capacity buildup from FY 08 onwards is should offset any such incremental demand.

 

While this is not a bearish call for cement stocks it does try and set things into perspective about the changing dynamics of the cement industry.

 

 

Source: Economic Times and Company



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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



Replies:
Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 3:16pm
Great Report BasantJi....
Got a similar recomm form a friend who is an "Cement Analyst" at one of the foregin brokerages.
 
He however recommended me one interesting trade... which according to him could give 50% returns in 1-Year... That is Go long Shree Cement and Short ACC.... of an equal amount. This keeps the sector exposure as NIL and gives us a great play on the relative strength of the two stocks....
How would you view the Recommendation.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 4:56pm
God concept but Shree is not in futures and relatively SHree and Grasim should do well. The funny part with Grasim is a few years ago it was a bits and pieces conglomerate now it looks like a specialised cement play (focused companies have better valuations) but over all I liked this strategy because in case of an industry stagnation the leader cannot escape the pitfalls whereas small localised niche players could keep going on.Also in terms of efficiency Shree and Ambuja are the best but Ambuja has been damaged since it holds a lot of investments into group companies which give it nothing except a dividend yield of 1% or so at current valuations. That is why people have not been able to make money in Ambuja (low RoE and promoter investments will never get sold off so it wopuld not get reflected in the valuations).If you see these two companies they had a healthy operating margin even when the industry was down in the dumps so at the top (not sure whether to use this deadly word) it would make sense to be long on the efficient The table provides a perspective on operating margins:
 
Gujarat Ambuja

38.2%

     32.59% Mar 01

Shree Cement

44.5%

27.49   Mar 02

 
 
 
 
Did you know that the promoters of Shree Cement  (happen to know them) were the worst in corporate governance. Their magnitude of their lack of shareholder values (in those times) can be judged from the fact that once they reversed a dividend  proposal by having it voted against by their own set of shareholders at the AGM.They have now changed for the better and that is why the stock has been a 100 bagger in a few years.No equity dilution with a ten fold growth in capacity. He plays volleyball near your home every sunday morning.
 
 
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 5:37pm
Shree not being in Futures is not a problem as he is recommending "Buy" on Shree, which would be done in Cash Market.  Shorting ACC is in Futures. 
Are you Recommending Shree and Grasim?
-----------------
He plays volleyball near your home every sunday morning
--------------------
I would love to meet him. Tell me Victoria ? or Ordinance Club......
 
Intrestingly, the Analyst who gave me the Recomm lives very close to near your house, but now he is in Mumbai. However his parents and Bro still live there.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 5:51pm
Not recommending SHree and Grasim  personally but they are the better cement companies in terms of stock price behaviour. He plays with a group of 25-30 men in  his own bunglow at hastings.  


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 5:58pm
Karvy maintains `Outperformer` on Shree Cement javascript:openNewsMain%28/shares/company/quoteShow.php?icode=SHRCEMEN%29 - (Q , javascript:openNewsMain%28/shares/news/corporateNews.php?cSelect=5&icode=SHRCEMEN%29 - N , javascript:openNewsMain%28/shares/company/chartShow.php?cSelect=2&icode=SHRCEMEN%29 - C , javascript:openNewsMain%28/shares/company/financial.php?cSelect=3&icode=SHRCEMEN%29 - F) *

Source: Broker Research Summary (11 October 2006)

Karvy maintained an `Outperformer` rating on Shree Cement (CMP: Rs 1,096) with a 12 month price target of Rs 1,275.

The company reported net revenues of Rs 3.15 billion in Q2FY07, against the expectation of Rs 3.02 billion. It is 100% up from Rs 1.6 billion recorded in Q2FY06 and 2.1% from Rs 3.09 billion recorded in Q1FY07. The growth in sales was driven by a 46% increase in volumes and 40% growth in price realization. Additional capacity of 1.5 million tonnes commissioned by the company in February 2006 along with strong demand in North resulted in the volumes.

Strong realization and contained power and fuels costs resulted in the company’s margins expanding to 45.16% from 33.6% in Q2FY06 and 44.44% in Q1FY07. Strong topline growth along with contained operational costs helped the company`s profit before tax to grow 196% to Rs 1.1 billion in Q2FY07 compared to Rs 374 million in Q2FY06. The net profit of the company for Q2FY07 was Rs 778 million compared to Rs 374 million in Q2FY06.

The company recorded EPS of Rs 22 for Q2FY07 compared to Rs 10.7 in Q2FY06 and Rs 18.2 in Q1FY07. It is believed that the company would continue to perform well in the near future as no major capacity expansion is expected in next 12 months which coupled with strong demand would drive the company`s performance.



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happy & wise investing


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 6:54pm
BubbleVision: I thought about the strategy of buying in cash (Shree cement)and selling in future (ACC). Normally it would appear OK but when you consider that you would have to shell out an upfront payment for Shree Cement the charm weathers down. Money in today's market should have an opportunity cost of 24%  p.a. Assuming that you save some money from roll over spreads and brokerages (by buying SHree cement). Shree Cement would have to outperform ACC by at least 15-20% annually for you to break even and that is tough because cement as a sector tends to move together. WHen prices were low all stocks underperformed. It is not like pharma where Reddy will go up but Ranbaxy will not.
 
Now since these basic material sectors are always painted with the same brush and your bet is sector neutral the chances of significantly outperforming the market looks remote.
 
Just a thought!


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: prosperity
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2006 at 8:27pm
Basantji,
 
Pls. also compare India Cements with all the other cement stocks you have mentioned above.. I have holdings in India Cements.
 
Thanx
 


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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 15/Oct/2006 at 5:26pm
Basantji....please tell me if if Vinay cements is a value pick.....is it a part of thebig cement boom......it was hitting the upper ciruit and now it is hitting the lower circuit...what is good in Cements...

India Cements...
Mangalam Cements
Ultratech
Jk cement

Banks
_________
Andhra Cement
IOB
sir how is the recent DCB.....


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/Oct/2006 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by PrashantS

Basantji....please tell me if if Vinay cements is a value pick.....is it a part of thebig cement boom......it was hitting the upper ciruit and now it is hitting the lower circuit...what is good in Cements...

India Cements...
Mangalam Cements
Ultratech
Jk cement

Banks
_________
Andhra Cement
IOB
sir how is the recent DCB.....
 
You know I am not too enthused by these second grade cement companies. A few better ones are
1) Madras Cement
2) Shree Cement.
 
I think that these are efiicient businesses and are run by competent management having a regional bias. The others I clearly have no specific idea on.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 15/Oct/2006 at 8:15pm
But basantji..India cements...isnt it exoected to do well...here are some stats.....

Key points
  • Prime beneficiary of upturn in south: In FY2006 cement consumption in the southern region grew by 25%. With large infrastructure projects and manufacturing bases of MNCs coming up in the region, consumption is expected to grow at a CAGR of 11% for the next few years. Also fresh capacities here shall come up only in H1FY2009. Hence cement prices are expected to remain firm for the next two years. Thanks to its high leverage to cement prices, India Cements Ltd (ICL) shall benefit the most from this boom.
  • More growth from capex plan: Encouraged by the improvement in its financials and considering the scope for more improvement, ICL plans to raise its capacity by 2 million tonne by December 2007 at a cost of Rs350 crore. This shall take its total capacity to 11 million tonne. The entire capex shall be funded by the proceeds of a recent FCCB issue. 
  • Balance sheet transformed: With bouts of capital infusion through various routes, viz private placement, debt replacement and GDR issue, ICL’s balance sheet has improved in the past few years. Its debt/equity ratio has come down to a much respectable 1.8:1 in FY2006 from 6:1 in FY2005. With a strong free cash flow, we expect the ratio to drop further to 0.3:1 in FY2008. The RoNW should also improve from 4.3% in FY2006 to 27.7% in FY2008.
  • Trading at a huge discount to peers: At the current market price of Rs220, ICL is trading at 8.8x its FY2008E earnings and 6.1x its EV/EBITDA. On an EV/tonne basis, it is trading at USD109 per tonne of cement. That’s a huge discount of 30% to some of its peers who are trading at an average valuation of USD150 per tonne of cement. In view of the steep growth expected in its earnings and the improvement in its balance sheet, the discount is not justified. We recommend a Buy on ICL with a price target of Rs315.

Key financials
Year ended March 31 FY2004 FY2005 FY2006 FY2007 FY2008
Net profit (Rs cr) -95.9 -61.1 35.8 385.2 575.1
   % yoy growth       976.4 49.3
Shares in issue (cr) 13.9 13.9 19.1 22.9 22.9
EPS (Rs) -6.9 -4.4 1.9 16.8 25.1
PER (x) -31.8 -49.9 117.2 13.1 8.8
Book value (Rs) 26.0 24.4 45.1 66.0 91.1
P/BV (Rs) 8.5 9.0 4.9 3.3 2.4
EV/EBIDTA (x) 52.7 45.1 23.5 8.8 6.1
RoCE (%) 2.0 3.0 8.0 23.2 29.4

The promoters currently hold 28.7% of the paid-up equity capital. A spate of acquisitions, viz of Visaka Cement (capacity of 1.2 million tonne) and Raasi Cement (capacity of 1.6 million tonne) has helped it emerge as the largest cement company in the south with a total capacity of 8.8 metric tonne. These acquisitions were funded largely through debt. The downturn in the southern cement industry during FY2001-05 took its toll on the company, causing it to suffer losses for four long years and leaving it saddled with a huge debt. But by infusing fresh funds and undertaking a slew of cost-rationalisation measures, ICL has slowly come out of the red. What''s more, with the outlook for the cement industry appearing bright, things

are beginning to look up for ICL again.

Investments arguments

Prime beneficiary of boom in southern market
During FY2006 the southern region recorded a massive growth of 25% in cement consumption, outperforming the industry, which grew by a mere 12%. The growth has continued unabated: consumption grew by 20% in the period April- August 2006. As a result, the capacity utilisation level of the cement producers in the south is gradually crossing the 90-92% mark. With large infrastructure projects, eg the Ennore and Vallarpadam port projects, and the manufacturing bases of several multinational companies coming up in the south, the growth momentum in cement consumption is likely to be maintained. What''s more, since the region shall not get any fresh capacity before H1FY2009, capacity utilisation of the southern cement companies could reach almost 100% in FY2008. We believe that utilisation levels as high as 100% shall help cement prices to gather momentum, thereby maintaining the uptrend in the region. 

Clearly, cement companies in the south with a high leverage to cement prices shall benefit the most from the continued uptrend. We believe being the largest cement manufacturer in the region, ICL is all set to make the most of this boom because of its high leverage to cement prices.

Most leveraged to cement prices
Amongst its peers ICL has the highest leverage to cement prices. This means that in a scenario of rising cement prices, ICL would register the highest growth in its earnings before interest, depreciation, tax and amortisation (EBIDTA). For example, a Rs100-a-tonne (ie Rs5-a-bag) increase in cement prices can push ICL''s EBIDTA per tonne to Rs948 per tonne from the existing Rs848 per tonne. That would be an increase of 12% compared with a rise of 9% for a cement producer like Gujarat Ambuja Cement, which has a low leverage to cement prices.

ICL has amongst lowest EBDITA per tonne


Note: EBIDTA per tonne based on Q1FY2007 figures
Source: Sharekhan Research 

Cement consumption rising in south
Frequent bouts of capacity addition during FY2000-02 and a mere 4% compounded annual growth in cement consumption during FY2001-05 in the southern region meant that capacity utilisation levels never crossed even 80% during this period. However in 2005-06, the region saw a turn-around by recording a massive growth of 25% in cement consumption, outperforming the industry, which grew by only 12%. What''s more, the good performance has continued and the region has recorded a 20% growth in cement consumption for the period April-August 2006. 

Strong consumption growth buoys cement prices in south


Source: CMA

Cement prices buoyant once again
Due to the strong growth in cement consumption and rise in capacity utilisation levels in the recent times as well as the Supreme Court''s ban on overloading of trucks, cement prices in the region have started moving up. From an average of Rs157 during FY2006 the price of a bag of cement has gone up to Rs205 in August 2006, ie an increase of 31%. Even in Andhra Pradesh, which has traditionally been a cement surplus zone because of its high limestone reserves, cement prices have skyrocketed to Rs180 per 50-kilogram bag, that is a year-on-year growth of a staggering 39%.

South to witness lower capacity addition
In view of the unabated growth in cement consumption at the national level and the resultant upsurge in the cement prices, which have crossed the Rs200-per-bag mark, cement producers across the country have announced big capacity expansion plans. Based on announcements made till August 2006, a total capacity of 73.8 million tonne is expected to come up in the country in the next few years. Even south-based cement manufacturers have jumped on the capacity expansion bandwagon. For example, both Madras Cement and UltraTech Cement plan to raise their capacity by 4 million tonne. However compared to the other regions, this region is expected to witness lower capacity addition: 25% share of the total fresh capacity addition as against 32% share of the current installed capacity in the country.

South to witness lower capacity addition


Source: Industry and Sharekhan Research

  Share of current capacity Share of incremental  capacity
South (%) 32 25
North (%) 21 35
East (%) 14 16
Central (%) 16 12
Western (%) 18 12
Total capacity (in million tonne) 160 74

Demand-supply equation to remain tight
Large infrastructure projects, eg the Ennore and Vallarpadam port projects, are coming up in the south. Also several multinational companies are setting up their manufacturing base in the southern states. As a result, we expect heightened infrastructure and industrial activity here which shall cause cement consumption to grow at a compounded annual growth rate (CAGR) of 11% for the next three to four years. Due to this and the fact that no new capacity is expected to come up in the region before H1FY2009, capacity utilisation of the south-based players could reach almost 100% in FY2008 (see exhibit below).

Cement prices to firm up further
We do not expect the capacity utilisation levels to drop below 90% levels. Hence utilisation levels as high as 95-99% shall help cement prices to rise further. We believe being the largest cement manufacturer in the region ICL is all set to make the most of this boom, thanks to its high leverage to cement prices. 

ICL to add 2 million tonne cement capacity
Encouraged by the vast improvement in its financials and considering the scope for further improvement, ICL has lined up a capex plan of Rs350 crore. As per the plan, Rs85 crore shall be spent on converting the wet process plant at Sankaridurg to a modern dry process plant; this will improve the plant''s capacity utilisation. The plant''s capacity shall also be increased by 0.6 million tonne by the end of FY2007. The balance Rs265 crore of the capex will be utilised to de-bottleneck the Vishnupuram plant, whose capacity shall be raised by 1.4 million tonne by December 2007. Post-expansion, the Vishnupuram unit''s total capacity shall go up to 11 million tonne (including the 1.2 million tonne capacity of Visaka Cement). ICL recently concluded its foreign currency convertible bond (FCCB) issue of USD75 million (approximately Rs340 crore) to fund this capex. It also plans to set up a 2-million-tonne greenfield plant at Himachal Pradesh by 2010 and is scouting for mining leases.

Southern region witnessing rising capacity utilisation and increasing supply crunch
Particulars  FY2005 FY2006 FY2007E FY2008E FY2009E FY2010E
Clinker available 34.8 36.8 38.8 42.1 50.3 50.3
Net clinker from other regions -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5
Clinker exports -0.4 -0.4 -0.4 -0.4 -0.4 -0.4
Net clinker available 33.9 35.9 37.9 41.2 49.4 49.4
Blending ratio 1.3 1.3 1.3 1.3 1.3 1.3
Cement available 42.7 46.0 48.9 53.6 64.2 64.7
Less cement exports -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 -0.5
Less dispatch to other regions -5.0 -5.0 -5.0 -5.0 -5.0 -5.0
Add dispatch from other regions 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8
Net cement available 38.0 41.3 44.2 48.9 59.5 60.0
Cement consumption 31.5 39.4 44.1 49.4 54.3 59.7
Domestic supply overhang 6.5 1.9 0.1 -0.5 5.2 0.3
Overall capacity utilisation 78% 90% 95%* 99%* 94%* 103%
*High capacity utilisation to firm up cement prices

Earnings to shoot at a CAGR of 300%
With the double whammy of rising volumes and improving cement realisation, we expect ICL''s revenue to grow at a CAGR of 24% from Rs1,542 crore in FY2006 to Rs2,356 crore in FY2008. Due to its high leverage to cement prices and ongoing cost rationalisation exercise, the company''s operating profit should grow at an 82% CAGR and the operating profit margin improve from 16.9% in FY2006 to 36.8% in FY2008. The decline in the interest charge should also continue on account of debt repayment (since the capex plan would be funded by the FCCB proceeds, the major chunk of the cash flow would be utilised to repay debt). Therefore, we expect ICL''s net profit to grow at a CAGR of 300% over FY2006-08E. ICL should report earnings per share (EPS) of Rs16.8 for FY2007 and of Rs25.1 for FY2008. 

Massive transformation in the balance sheet
With bouts of capital infusion through various routes, viz private placement, debt replacement and global depository receipt issue (GDR) issue, ICL''s balance sheet has undergone a major transformation. Its debt/equity ratio has come down to a much respectable level of 1.8:1 in FY2006 from a high of 6:1 in FY2005. With a strong free cash flow, we expect the ratio to drop further to 0.8:1 in FY2007 and to 0.3:1 in FY2008. ICL''s return ratios too have improved significantly, as shown in the following exhibit. We expect its return on net worth (RoNW) to improve to 27.7% in FY2008 from 4.3% in FY2006. The return on equity is also expected to improve to 29.3% in FY2008.

Sharp improvement in return ratios


Source: Company annual report and Sharekhan Research

Reducing debt: equity ratio*


* Adjusted for preference capital and revaluation reserves
Source: Company annual report and Sharekhan Research

Troubled times in the past
ICL went through a bad patch in the past few years and reported a negative bottom line for four consecutive years, from FY2002 to FY2005. This was primarily on account of two reasons. One, the company''s eagerness to make an acquisition at any cost; this bloated the cost of acquiring Raasi Cement in 1998, resulting in a huge debt. ICL had a massive debt of Rs2,057 crore on its book with a debt/equity ratio of 6:1 in FY2003. Two, due to the excess capacity and subdued growth in cement consumption (4% CAGR) in the southern region over FY2001-05, the business of cement had turned unremunerative. As a result of this ICL''s operating profits declined, leaving it unable to service its huge debt burden.

Rs crore 2005 2004 2003 2002
EBITDA 151.2 130.5 32.7 285.3
Interest cost 133.5 161.7 258.5 205.4

Corporate debt restructured
The company was therefore referred to the Corporate Debt Restructuring (CDR) cell in 2003. Since then, in keeping with the restructuring plan, ICL has reduced the size of its workforce and sold off its assets, including two cement units, the shipping business and the other non-core assets. The plan also included a loan extension and waiver of interest cost.

Funds mobilised through private placements 
Close to Rs520 crore have also been raised through the placement of a mix of equity/warrant and debt instruments with ADRC, a Hong Kong-based foreign institutional investor, and a Rs490-crore GDR issue. These investments have helped the company to trim its debt component from Rs2,047 crore in 2004 to Rs1,525 crore in 2006 and fund its working capital.

Workforce reduced
As per the restructuring plan, ICL has also been pruning the size of its workforce over the last four years. From 4,462 employees in FY2003, its employee base came down to 3,100 employees in FY2006. The company aims to reduce its workforce further by offering a voluntary retirement scheme in future.

Trading at a huge discount to peers
At the current market price of Rs220, ICL is trading at 8.8x its FY2008E earnings and 6.1x its enterprise value (EV)/EBITDA. On an EV/tonne basis, the stock is trading at USD109 per tonne of cement. In other words, it is trading at a huge discount of 30% to some of its peers, viz Associated Cement Companies, Madras Cement and UltraTech Cement, who are trading at an average valuation of USD150 per tonne of cement.

ICL trading at huge discount to its peers
Companies  PER EV/EBIDTA EV/tonne ($ US/Tonne)
FY07E FY08E FY07E FY08E FY07E FY08E
ACC 20.0 17.3 11.9 10.0 196.0 177.9
UTCL 15.6 13.7 8.1 7.3 150.9 146.6
Shree Cements 12.8 9.9 8.5 6.2 198.9 138.6
Madras Cement 15.6 12.5 8.9 7.3 146.6 133.7
India Cements 12.9 8.8 9.1 6.1 140.9 108.6

Discount unjustified, recommend Buy
We believe the discount is not justified. We therefore recommend a Buy on ICL with a price target of Rs315, expecting a 43% upside from the current levels. We have valued ICL on the basis of 12x its FY2008 earnings estimates, 9x EV/EBIDTA and EV per tonne of USD150 per tonne of cement. To arrive at the fair value for ICL, we have valued Visaka Cement, a 49.9% associate of ICL, at USD75 per tonne of cement.

ICL''s fair value Rs315 per share
Valuation measure Fair value (Rs per share)
12x FY2008 earnings 301
On 9 x EV EBIDTA 333
EV per tonne (USD150) 308
Average 315

Financials

Profit and loss account

Rs (cr)

Particulars FY04 FY05 FY06 FY07E FY08E
Net sales 1016.9 1162.1 1541.8 1931.7 2356.3
Operating expenses 916.1 1025.6 1280.8 1280.5 1489.5
Operating profit 100.8 136.5 261.0 651.3 866.8
Other Income 29.6 14.7 7.3 10.0 8.0
EBIDTA 130.5 151.2 268.2 661.3 874.8
Depreciation 81.5 78.8 78.9 93.6 101.5
Interest 161.7 133.5 148.9 134.5 74.5
PBT -112.7 -61.1 40.4 453.2 718.8
Tax 0.0 0.0 4.7 68.0 143.8
PAT -95.9 -61.1 35.8 385.2 575.1

Balance sheet

Rs (cr)

Particulars FY04 FY05 FY06 FY07E FY08E
Share capital 163.6 163.6 215.7 254.0 254.0
Equity capital 138.6 138.6 190.7 229.0 229.0
Preference capital 25.0 25.0 25.0 25.0 25.0
Reserves & surplus 1197.2 1111.7 1527.2 2139.9 2715.0
Shareholders fund 1360.8 1275.3 1742.9 2394.0 2969.0
Total debt 2047.3 1987.2 1525.2 1120.7 620.7
Total liabilities 3408.1 3262.5 3268.2 3514.6 3589.7
Gross block 2889.8 2985.3 3002.8 3118.7 3383.7
Net fixed assets 2235.1 2201.9 2084.0 2106.4 2269.9
C/w in progress 98.8 3.0 31.0 150.0 50.0
Investments 34.7 34.8 34.8 34.8 34.8
Current assets 1308.2 1368.5 1512.4 1712.0 1833.6
Current liabilities 242.8 321.2 387.1 476.3 581.0
Net current assets 1065.3 1047.3 1125.4 1235.7 1252.6
Mis exp not w/o 20.5 21.9 41.7 36.4 31.0
Deferred tax liability -46.3 -46.3 -48.6 -48.6 -48.6
Total assets 3408.1 3262.5 3268.2 3514.6 3589.7

Key ratios
Particulars FY04 FY05 FY06 FY07E FY08E
OPM (%) 9.9 11.7 16.9 33.7 36.8
EBIDTA (%) 12.8 13.0 17.4 34.2 37.1
PAT (%) -9.4 -5.3 2.3 19.9 24.4
RoCE (%) 2.0 3.0 8.0 23.2 29.4
RoNW (%) -28.6 -19.5 4.3 25.9 27.9
Debt/equity (X) 5.8 6.0 1.8 0.8 0.3

Valuations
Particulars FY04 FY05 FY06 FY07E FY08E
EPS -6.9 -4.4 1.9 16.8 25.1
PER -31.8 -49.9 117.2 13.1 8.8
P/B 8.5 9.0 4.9 3.3 2.4
EV/EBIDTA 52.7 45.1 23.5 8.8 6.1
EV/Sales 4.1 5.9 4.1 3.0 2.3
M cap/EBIDTA 19.3 36.9 19.3 7.7 5.8
M cap/Sales 3.3 4.3 3.3 2.6 2.






Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/Oct/2006 at 8:25pm
Quite an exhaustive coverage by ShareKhan.See I am no expert on Cement. If you believe in the story then keep it but to me personally when every one knows that the cement capacity will go up in 2009; the market would not wait for one more year to discount the same.
 
This is just a general view and not company specific.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 15/Oct/2006 at 11:49am

Basant,

Current capacity is 160m and capacity addtion you listed is abt 42m. So how will it be 230M? Can you tell us abt this missing 28mt?

Not all the plants will be built in 2 years. There is always some delay for some plants if so many plants are going to be built, there will be even shortage of some skill. Current utilization is 97% so if demand grows @15% and all plants built and capacity is 230m(please explain) utilization would be 90% which is not so bad. Then there is demand from gulf countries. So I am little more optimistic on industry.
 
On import from china:
Quality of chinese cement @240 could be questionable. You already dont like mini cement plants and china has 4000-5000 cement companies. may be lot of mini and lot of micro plants. I really doubt one can be efficient quality producer with so many companies.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Oct/2006 at 11:04pm
The ones that I listed are whose details were readily available. The total 70 milll tonnes is reported by ET probably there are many other smaller plants whose details are not avaialble on the net.
 
Maybe all that capacity could take longer then 2 years maybe 3 years but my point was not to say that the cement industry is over but to suggest that we should be aware of these capacity expansions that are around the corner.Generally market starts to discount all the good and the bad news quite in advance and that is what investors could also look at because if the market knows that Ok capacity is coming in 2008 and if it comes in 2009 then even good results will find it tough to increase stock prices. On the other hand if demand increases more then surely stocks could go up but generally we have a tendency to price in the news much before it actually comes in.
 
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Oct/2006 at 8:44pm
The initial post talked about Grasim and Ultratech increasing capacity by

Grasim

8 million tonnes

UltraTech

4 million tonnes

 
In an interview on CNBC the management said that Grasim is adding 8.5 million tonnes and Ultratech about 4 million tonnes.The operating margins was 31% for Grasim and 27% for Ultratech. 
 
DD Rathi further said that " For the first time we are talking about 9-10% growth in the cement sector for the next two years at least. I think there won’t be any cause of concern for the growth in the cement demand for the next number of years."
 
Cement he said constituted about 12% of the total construction cost.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 28/Nov/2006 at 7:44pm
Is this rumour true for India Cements ??? i bought this stock on shaer performance............so will it be re rated now for sometime



Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 28/Nov/2006 at 8:53pm
There is indeed a rumour in the market about a foreign player aquiring a stake on this counter. But irrespective of whether this comes true or not, for a cement company, India Cements is resonably valued and worth a buy. Also the Gujarat Ambuja stake sale has re-rated the entire sector. Since you have already bought the stock, it is worth the hold

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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2006 at 8:05pm
ACC v/s Lafarge v/s Holcim

The 'cement story' is once again in the limelight. Global cement majors have been eyeing the Indian cement market for some time now. What makes the Indian cement market so attractive?

India is a developing country and so there are good growth opportunities. India's GDP is expected to grow at 8% annually and so the cement sector, being a core infrastructure sector, is expected to grow at 8% to 10% annually. The world over, especially in developed countries, growth has slowed down, so the companies are moving to developing economies to tap the growing market. Cement being a bulk commodity, cannot be transported over long distances and hence there has been a scramble among global giants to acquire capacities in the country.

Against this backdrop, let us see how ACC, one of the largest cement companies in the country, compares with global giants like Lafarge and Holcim.

ACC: The company has a pan India presence and is particularly strong in the northern and the eastern regions. ACC has undertaken modernization and up gradation of its old plants. It has converted wet process of cement manufacturing to energy efficient dry process and has also reduced excess workforce. All this helped it to improve performance. Earlier, because of its old plants and excess workforce and a leveraged balance sheet, company always underperformed compared to domestic and multinational players. The capacity augmentation of its plants and favorable demand supply scenario has proven positive for the company.

Lafarge: Lafarge, world's largest cement producer, is among the first transnational to enter the Indian market and has already emerged as a market leader in the eastern region. Lafarge is increasingly focusing on developing economies like India, as diversified presence helps it to effectively counter the lower growth rates in its mature markets.

Holcim: Holcim, the Swiss giant, is one of the world's leading suppliers of cement, as well as aggregates, concrete and construction related services. It has a strong market presence in over 70 countries and across all continents.

Though, Lafarge was first transitional to enter India, it expanded at lower rate. Holcim entered later but has acquired major stake in two of India's biggest cement companies, Gujarat Ambuja (GACL) and ACC, the latter being in consortium with GACL. Lafarge is not looking beyond Eastern markets and expanding through brown filed and Greenfield expansion plans. Holcim on the other hand, through its stake in ACC and GACL, has presence all over India. Holcim has targeted western markets through GACL and a stake in ACC (company that has pan India presence) will benefit it to explore other markets.

Let us have a look at the financial and operating performance of the three companies in recent times.

Parameter* Units Companies
ACC Lafarge Holcim
Capacity (MT) 18.3 160.0 160.4
Operating parameters        
Net Sales (US$ m) 715 20,676 14,774
Sales CAGR - (FY03-05) (%) 6.7% 13.4% 27.4%
Operating margin (%) 16.2% 14.8% 25.1%
Net margin (%) 17.0% 6.9% 12.3%
Return ratios        
RoNW (%) 25.5% 8.8% 15.4%
RoA (%) 11.8% 6.6% 4.8%
Debt to equity (x) 0.90 0.15 0.89
Valuations        
Price to earnings (x) 22.7 17.2 16.2
Enterprise value per tonne (US$) 256 212 192

*FY05 data

ACC's operating margins have expanded by 400 basis points since FY03 on account of operational efficiencies achieved. Earlier, company was operationally less efficient than its global peers mainly on account of its old plants and it was also hurt by lower realisations in the Indian market. Its net margins, excluding extraordinary effect of profit on sale of refractory business, stood at 8%. Though 8% is lower, when compared to its transnational players and its performance in FY03, company has improved its performance. This can be attributed to better realisations on account of demand growth led by housing and infrastructure activities, apart from reduction in operating costs and reduced debt burden.

Holcim's performance also improved substantially on account of its expansion plans, reduction in debt and efficient use of resources. Exploring newer and developing markets has helped the company. In FY03 the capacity difference between Holcim and Lafarge was almost 6 MT but now both are almost neck and neck.

In case of Lafarge, increases in repairs, maintenance and distribution costs, as well as higher fuel and energy costs, negatively impacted earnings. Moreover it operates in saturated markets where margins tend to be lower and this is manifested in lower return ratios for the company.

As far as valuations are concerned, ACC because of its presence in a growing market and better operating parameters, trades at a premium over its much fancied rivals like Holcim and Lafarge, where high growth in developing economies get offset by a rather sedate growth in mature economies like the European nations and the US.




Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2006 at 8:15pm
In corrections such as these look for stocks which had huge F&O positions and which are being cut . India Cement looks to me as one such stock

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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2006 at 9:46pm
Good god nothing works in this market.........the whole lot has been sliced in this carnage...but yea India Cement is the best bet


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2006 at 12:26pm
In corrections such as these look for stocks which had huge F&O positions and which are being cut....
-------------------------------------------------
Catcall, while I do not subscribe to this criteria for buying the stock...but F&O/leverage/margin-calls is the prime catalyst for this massive sell-off...
 
If one over-leverages while day-trading, with over-confidence aiding his 'strategic decisions'; the end-results are remembered/felt over next five generations.
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2006 at 12:34pm
Kulmanji there is nothing wrong with this stock ...they should declare good results in the coming Quarters....this is something which i donot understand .....
people have been seeling in cash market ........and buyingin futtures...or some funda like that....so i think it is time to pick up some more stocks....


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2006 at 9:33am
Good god nothing works in this market
-----------
 
PrashantS ... i for one would not agree with this .... i believe "Everything Works....what matters is what works for you."


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 13/Dec/2006 at 5:56pm
India Cement has shown a decent pull back today, let's see if it sustains......

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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 13/Dec/2006 at 6:14pm
it will sustain .........for sure..any fall is a buying chance.........it is running in full capacity.......has to do well for sure............

best amoung midcap cements to play this cement boom
major player in south for sure.......and
there was a talk of foriegn player buying the stock at 280 Rs


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2006 at 8:20pm
India Cements seems to be doing quite well in the pull back rally.....

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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2006 at 11:14pm
yes ...and see there was a bulk deal catcall ..the goras FII  have palyed the cards well..........i expect another correction..............they havent filled their apetite...........i guess......this was all preplanned bfore anyone could react...

ofcourse i dont know the details. properly but that is the case....


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2006 at 8:26am
Franklin bought some 12.5 lac India cement at Rs 190 odd.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2006 at 11:12am
yes basantji..196.........damn.......these goras are really playing their cards well.........


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Jan/2007 at 8:41am
The Import duty cut could decide the cement rally. If they survive then the rally has strength if they are unable to survive the scare then we could be in a problem.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: monu_duggad
Date Posted: 23/Feb/2007 at 4:22pm
No competition with kulmanji...he is supreme......:-)...he is the Don Bradman of this field...
 
Basantji...and other members...pls provide some insight
 
If cement exports are banned(as per the current grapewine in market)...is it going to affect there profits significantly ...i mean the way they have corrected by 20-30 % in a week ....i wanted to add cement stock in my portfolio.....just wanted to chek is there something fundamentally wrong there....with hike in int rates...real estate cool off....and inability to raise cement prices going forward...
 


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If you think you can,You Can


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Feb/2007 at 6:51pm
I still feel that most of the cement stocks have seen their bit of outperformance. The Govt. in a bid to control prices will not let manufacturers increase prices whereas higher interst rates will play their own negative part on the user industries.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 23/Feb/2007 at 7:13pm
My take on the cement sector- I feel that these stocks, expecially the smaller ones are correcting below thier fair valuations. As far as reduction in import duty is concerned, I do not feel it will the effect is more sentimental than fundamental. As regards the export ban, while the larger players do get export revenues, majority of the mid-cap cement companies do not export even today and the growth in revenues is largly due to strong domestic consumption , which even by conservative estimates, will remain storng at least for the nest 5 years.
I expect the downside to continue till atleast the budget, after which these companies should give good entry levels


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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 23/Feb/2007 at 7:39pm
i would really not touch cement..though it might be in demand..tough to take a call..the way the good companies are falling...but contrarioan calls may help...chidambaram ji kuch bhi kar sakte hein..or the export ban will be just a rumour...........as long as he downst affect media service ..i think we are all happy


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 23/Feb/2007 at 8:06pm

"I shall be saying this with a sigh,

somewhere ages and ages hence,

two roads divered in a wood and I,

took the one less travelled by,

and that has made all the difference"

- With appologies to Sir Robert Frost!!!
 
 (whether it will be  a sigh of  angush or relief , only time will tellWink


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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 4:04pm

The Budget has delivered a stunning blow to the cement industry. The provisions are Rs 12.50 Excise duty if cement is sold at Rs 190 per bag and a duty of Rs 30 per bag if it is sold beyond Rs 190. That means that no seller would sell cement between Rs 190 to Rs 207.50 --- The additional excise duty component of Rs 30 - Rs 12.50 = Rs 17.50 will have to be recovered.

In the short run prices will remain beyond Rs 207.50 but over the next 6 months as incremental supply comes in (aided by increase in capacities and export ban) cement prices could be under pressure. The wioring on the wall is clear if cement manufacturers do not reduce prices the Govt. could act like a police state.
 
Now this kind of an action is least expected from a Govt. but the point is that blaming the Govt (with reason) will do no good to the losses that investors in this sector have suffered.
 
As a cascading effect of prices being subjected to further upward revision in the short run the real estate and construction companies were bleeding.
 
I have always maintained that things that are subject to whims and fancies of the Govt. should best be left to them because the Govt. has an uncanny ability to hit when it matters the most.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 4:14pm
According to my sources in the Eastern Region.. ACC and Lafarge would have to reduce their prices to take advantage of the lower Duty....
 
Their margins would fall the most! 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by basant


 
I have always maintained that things that are subject to whims and fancies of the Govt. should best be left to them because the Govt. has an uncanny ability to hit when it matters the most.
 


Rightly said basantji - the Govt is not even acting like a headmaster...but like a ring master...Power hungry Politicians can screw up the fortunes of any sector. When it comes to 'kissa kursi ka' even the most educated ones appear to be dumb.

Here is something Grasim has to say:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/economy/palaniappanchidambaramfinanceminister/cementexcisedut/market/stocks/article/269292 - http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/economy/palaniappanchidambaramfinanceminister/cementexcisedut/market/stocks/article/269292


Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 6:43pm
It was quite evident , that the Government in its bid to contain Inflation would do what it has done , the Cement price for the last 10-15 years or more was between 100- 150 Rs/ Bag . Cement Companies were bleeding . Only in the last 1 year or so they had got their ricing power back, but poor felows had such a short time to make money.
But the big question is will anyone now invest in Future Capacities ?


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 7:17pm

In a business selling a commodity-type (competitive) product, it's impossible to be a lot smarter than your dumbest competitor.---Warren Buffet



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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 7:37pm
Kulmanjeee
 
In our budget expectations section we need your comments about reactions of Mungerilal on todays downfall & FM's budget ........


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happy & wise investing


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by vip1

It was quite evident , that the Government in its bid to contain Inflation would do what it has done , the Cement price for the last 10-15 years or more was between 100- 150 Rs/ Bag . Cement Companies were bleeding . Only in the last 1 year or so they had got their ricing power back, but poor felows had such a short time to make money.
But the big question is will anyone now invest in Future Capacities ?
 
Capacity is coming up BIG time. See the first page of this thread.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 12:19pm
PC stands for Police Comissioner
Welcome to the Police state of India


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: kaushalchawla
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 2:19am
Basantji,
 
Thsi article was just too good.
 
It was too good to note that cost/price of the output (cement in this case) can rise, output might be performing good but not necessarily the stocks!! 
 
Enlightenment.......gives you a feeling of happinessSmile


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Warm Regards,
Kaushal


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Mohan

PC stands for Police Comissioner
Welcome to the Police state of India
 
That is quite an appropriate description.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 10:02am
Basantji,
do you know if Cemex own any cement capacity in India ?
Here 's the link to them on Google finance.
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=CX - http://finance.google.com/finance?q=CX


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 10:57am
None that I know of.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: prosperity
Date Posted: 28/Feb/2007 at 11:58am

Should we exit India Cements ... if yes @ current rates or expect a bounce to get out ?

I have some exposure to India Cements.
 


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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 12:10pm
Longer term the cream seems to be out of the milk maybe it could bounce a bit because stocks do not go in one inflexible direction only but at this juncture a TA should be able to help.
 
Bubblevision any idea on cement stocks?


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 12:43pm
They are offered on my Trend Following system (Since early Feb). Cement is the leader of this fall and NOTE that they topped before the general markets. ACC infact topped out in Dec-2006.
 
India Cements has a strong Resistance at 210 and it has broken below the Sensex corresponding level of 12800 ... showing poor internal strength and leadership to the downside.
 
NOTE I can change my bias at any time in the future depending on the changing markets dynamics. These are current views.
 
I dont trade cement stocks as their beta is very high relative to the market. (Kulman sorry for using the word)Wink


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 1:06pm
you know what is happening with cements is that Mr Fm doesnt want cement companies to make money.........there has to be soemthing.internal grudge may be..there could be a slight chance that what happened to sugar may happen to cements...............


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by PrashantS

you know what is happening with cements is that Mr Fm doesnt want cement companies to make money.........there has to be soemthing.internal grudge may be..there could be a slight chance that what happened to sugar may happen to cements...............
 
It is always better to avoid stocks that could move because of reasons as stupid and nonsesical as these.
 
The Govt. is supreme and irrespective of what we say and comment the point is that it could do damage to companies in more ways then one so as cement manufacturers start to hike prices we have another message from the trade minister!
 
That is why I want to avoid companies whose future is directed by Govt, Global conditions etc. It is very difficult to make money in this market buying stocks of companies whose CEO do not know the unit selling price of teh product 3 months hence.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 3:07pm
Yes Basantji took your advice this year ...and thnx to you that i am safely making some profits...these guys (Govt) kill sectors ..........i wouldnt be surprised to hear if our own FM would have made this move for personal profits..or may be coz of political pressure......

Learnt a  very good lesson never touch sectors which are affected by Interst rates and stupid rules made by the government..........


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 4:11pm

Thanks for that compliment but somehow I have become allergic to http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=279 - cyclicals . just tolerant to technology and almost in everlasting love with something that can grow its EPS for 3-5 years at a strech!

 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 01/Mar/2007 at 4:24pm
 I have become allergic to http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=279 - cyclicals .....
-----------------------------------------------------
 
Heard that one Mungerilal lost so much money in Cyclicals (sugar, cement, aluminium etc) that he had to sell Pulsar & buy a bi-cycle.
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 04/Mar/2007 at 11:54am
Personlly I would be looking at price/bumps/jumps to exit cement. The longer term money has been made and PC would ensure that people give it back earlier then later!

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 05/Mar/2007 at 1:13pm
Heard that one Mungerilal lost so much money in Cyclicals (sugar, cement, aluminium etc) that he had to sell Pulsar & buy a bi-cycle.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
& if the market falls like this then may be a tri-cycle ....Wink
 
nice one kulmanjee ( jus giving some PJ hereBig%20smile )


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happy & wise investing


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 2:00pm
The Govt. has ensured that cement stocks remain out of shape. If expeorts are banned then cement prices could fall further. It makes sense to take the money out whenever there is arally and ignore all the noise about value that the experts make on TV. The perception has been destroyed and when the perception takes a whack the PE's contract.Money can find alternative uses and I would not get into any sort of bargain hunting with cement.
 
Even if I had to do some buying I would restrict myself to companies that would remain insulated from the Govt and interest rates.
 
Once again I would avoid BCCI!
 
Banking
Cement
Construction
IT
 
WHen in doubt stay out!Confused


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 2:05pm
Add real estate to that BCCIOuch

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 2:32pm
BasantJi... Why "I"

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 3:29pm
If we are talking about US recession for the global markets to go down then the perception (PE) for IT companies would deteriorate.
 
Nothing bad has been reported till date but we need to watch very closely what Nandan Nilekani says on 10th April. They know the US markets better then most of the guests on Tv!
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 3:51pm
Ok Thanks BasantJi....
 
As you know ... my Eyes are firmly on the US!


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 4:01pm
Things look so scary...it shakes the confidence  of lot of small retail guys...thnl god govt cannot control media so much ...

Yeh zindagi hey ika jua........hope we are on the winning side     


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 5:47pm

Check out what Commerce Minister had to say on Cement price control. Udayan totally took the Nath n the backfoot.

In fact, the guy seemed totally defensive and was talking all "bad economics", giving the usual speech of politics of caring for consumers etc. (for whom they actually dont care for much, they only want themselves to look good as politicians).
 
 
Here's the link on MC: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/video/newsvideo.php?autono=270431 - http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/video/newsvideo.php?autono=270431
 
 
Note: Do watch the whole interview video, as it was a nice mini-fight of words between Nath and Udayan. On a scale of 1-10, Udayan scored 8 and Nath -2 LOLLOLLOLLOL


-------------
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 6:39pm
Note: Do watch the whole interview video, as it was a nice mini-fight of words between Nath and Udayan. On a scale of 1-10, Udayan scored 8 and Nath -2 LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
What a " ONE SIDED MASSACARE"  I have seen nothing like this before this is a MUST SEE FOR ALL TEDDIES.HATS OFF TO THE
 " GREAT BENGAL TIGER"Thumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpLOLLOLLOLLOL
UDAYAN (10) , NATH (-10)


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 8:46pm

By far in all the interviews done by Udayan Mukherjee, this by far was the most agrressive of them all.... I've never seen Udayan in this light before!!!

My view is going by the tone, and content of the discussion, the last word hasn't been spoken on this discussion.... hope this fight doesnt convert from a Cement  Industry v/s Govt to a CNBC v/s. Kamal Nath fightWink



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There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:01pm
I can understand Udayan's tone. This govt. is trying to act God. In the name of caring for consumers, I suspect these politicians are doing lots of things which may have a strong personal vested interests.
 
If these people really cared about the aam jaanta, then the salary paying class would not be screwed with just a 10,000 rupees extension to the tax slab. 10 thousand rupees wow, just imagine!!!
 
Especially since the Indian economy has primarily gone ahead bcoz if THIS MIDDLE CLASS since time memorial. And the govt. instead of rewarding us people, goes onto further screw us. This long-term capital gains tax. etc. is the LEAST these guys can do for the middle class! I wont be surprised if these people think LTCG is an "ahsaan" on us middle classies.


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: catcall
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:15pm
SmileOmji, aap ne mere muh ki baat cheen li!! I fully agree with you, the point is today no minister in the Cong. wants to be seen to be the reasoon for the congress's failure in UP (which seems to be a foregone conclusionLOL) , they simply do not seem to understand that they are only making more enemies, not winning votes, by these kind of stances.
 
Another thing, i'm of the view that all is not well between Kamal Nath and Chidujee.. remember the divergence in views over the SEZ issue, today also, in the interview nath says "I understand" the cement industry has had a meeting with the finance miinster .... how can he say "I understand?? , he should bloody well "know" it, including what was discussed !!Smile
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate-when he can't afford it and when he can-Happy investing!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:23pm

Cangress, [Yes Cangress ] is back to its old tricks of fighting for the AAM Aadmi.

Next they will start their old slogan "garibi Hatao"
 
They lost the states of Punjab and Uttaranchal due to internal infighting and bickering. PC and Kamal Nah cannot see eye to eye and using sugar and cemet industry of fight proxy battles.
 
Sonia has admitted that they lost elections due to price rise and internal bickering.
 
hence Listen to Basantji and stay away from Industries that GOVT can meddle in.
 


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:36pm
"garibi Hatao"
----------
 
After a few days they will say "Garibo ko hatao....garibi apne aap hat jayegi"Wink


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:54pm
Congress is Old wine in new bottle(PC&SMS). They always play reservation, price control, manipulating opposition state govt. Always. All decision making is completely controlled from one office.
 
Now I have one question.
Lets assume that GOVT bans cement export. And there is EOU Cement plat that has export obligation. What happens to them? Close down?
 
Another Q: Companies have to price bag <190 for lower duty. What if they start selling lower grade for less than 190? Is that ok?
 
If they go for price control(unlikely), there will be black mkt. Cement companies can ask for advance at controlled price and make money on deposits. Remember people had to pay deposit and wait for 2 years to get Bajaj Scooter?
 
Free Import is just gimmick and not going to happen as Cement is bulky and India is competitive.
 


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 10:04pm
Lets assume that GOVT bans cement export. And there is EOU Cement plat that has export obligation. What happens to them? Close down?
 
Another Q: Companies have to price bag <190 for lower duty. What if they start selling lower grade for less than 190? Is that ok?
 
If they go for price control(unlikely), there will be black mkt. Cement companies can ask for advance at controlled price and make money on deposits. Remember people had to pay deposit and wait for 2 years to get Bajaj Scooter? 
___________________________________________________________
 
What if the cement producers decide to STOP production of cement for 2 weeks? Do they have the guts? I wish they did that.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

"garibi Hatao"
----------
 
After a few days they will say "Garibo ko hatao....garibi apne aap hat jayegi"Wink
 
 
Garibo ko hatayege to inko vote kaun denga ?
 
They need the garib as these are their vote banks.
 
Like Doctors need patients , politicians need vote banks to stay in power


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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by omshivaya

Check out what Commerce Minister had to say on Cement price control. Udayan totally took the Nath n the backfoot.

Note: Do watch the whole interview video, as it was a nice mini-fight of words between Nath and Udayan. On a scale of 1-10, Udayan scored 8 and Nath -2 LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
I have never seen politicians as shameless and double faced as these.They are deaf to logic and sense. Between the Madam and her chamchas they have devoured two full sectors of the Indian economy,
 
1) Oil Marketing
2) Sugar
 
As they get ready to wave their hands on the third sector "cement"  it brings me to the crossroads of introspection.
 
How is this Govt. action different from the so called communal or caste based politics?
 
Since the Govt. is supposed to govern in whatever way it deems fit we can do little about this except to say "To hell with the sectors where the Govt. can destroy my wealth just because it thinks it can win an election by doing some crazy things".
 
Just see what they did to Nimbus Sports? I mean who are the blessed souls who vote for these people?


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: vivekkumar_in
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 10:49pm
Absolutely Basantji !
It has been proven more than once..Any govt when they scent the fear of defeat, like what they saw here will go all out war to do the most nonsensible thing ... Forget economics  .. retaining power is key..

I am just wondering in the near future Govt will bring in more stringent regulations on  - Banks, Commodity Trading exchanges, Super Markets/Retail(in name of price control) etc..

The sector they touch is gone for ever.. They have such a magic touch..

Nothing is out of reach for our politicians..



-------------
Often we forget there's a company behind every stock,and there's only one reason why stocks go up. Companies go from doing poorly to doing well or small companies grow to large companies.
P Lynch


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 10:59pm
I recall another statement of PC. They have ambition of controlling price globally. Few months back when gold prices were soaring PC warned STRONGLY (I dont know whom) that if prices dont come back GOVT will take action!!! WOW!! (Do they want to send fighter planes to LME?)
 
Expect more to follow.


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by basant

Originally posted by omshivaya

Check out what Commerce Minister had to say on Cement price control. Udayan totally took the Nath n the backfoot.

Note: Do watch the whole interview video, as it was a nice mini-fight of words between Nath and Udayan. On a scale of 1-10, Udayan scored 8 and Nath -2 LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
I have never seen politicians as shameless and double faced as these.They are deaf to logic and sense. Between the Madam and her chamchas they have devoured two full sectors of the Indian economy,
 
1) Oil Marketing
2) Sugar
 
As they get ready to wave their hands on the third sector "cement"  it brings me to the crossroads of introspection.
 
How is this Govt. action different from the so called communal or caste based politics?
 
Since the Govt. is supposed to govern in whatever way it deems fit we can do little about this except to say "To hell with the sectors where the Govt. can destroy my wealth just because it thinks it can win an election by doing some crazy things".
 
Just see what they did to Nimbus Sports? I mean who are the blessed souls who vote for these people?
 
 
Like in the Indian economy, a structural and not cyclical change has also occured in the Indian society. The problem is the govt. is able to see the structural change in the economy,  but the societal change is too subtle for them to notice. They are still living in the Indira days, thinking they can do anything and get away with it.
 
They are vastly underestimating the middle class people of India. Not bcoz middle class will come and break their windows, but bcoz there is a law of the universe. They can't say "aam aadmi, aam aadmi" and keep screwing the middle class.
 
It worked before but will not be so easy right now, because as I said earlier: "structural change in Indian society".


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: vivekkumar_in
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 2:58am
Hear the famous Kamal Nath - Udayan Video here
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/video/newsvideo.php?autono=270431

Shows Udayan has some guts...& Kamal Nath has very little clue on commerce or Economics ..

I like this kind of journalism ! Good job CNBC-TV18 !


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Often we forget there's a company behind every stock,and there's only one reason why stocks go up. Companies go from doing poorly to doing well or small companies grow to large companies.
P Lynch


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 3:01am
Vivek ji, beat you to it....yeaaaah! Last post of mine on the following linkBig%20smile
 
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=486&PN=8 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=486&PN=8
 
 
Just kiddin' on the "beat you to it" part Wink


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 5:44am
PC warned STRONGLY
------
 
Yes manish that was in Apr-06.


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 9:23am
Kamal Nath , has /had a Resort by the name of Span Resorts in Himachal on the Banks of Beas, which was under a big controversy because it was bang on the Beas and flouted Environmental Norms . But This Man has Got away with it because he is a politician and hence can play GOD .Angry


Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2007 at 11:19am

I am quite impressed by UM. Initially KN resisted him but later gave up to his accuracy of questions. I have been big fan of UM. Whatever he says, he says with conviction. This whole interview saga will popularize real-time interviews of politicians. I recall once Tony Blair interview where he was answering to media personalities virtually jumping into their shoes. I suspect similar things will start in India. Media is very powerful. One of my friend's brother who was working as news-paper correspondence, once told that we all know what each politions are doing at any point of time  (even sleeping stuff as well) but most of the media correspondents are either frightens or lured by them, so big news does not come out always. We must establish answerable medium between politicians and mass junta. Hats off to UM!!!.



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Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.


Posted By: prosperity
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2007 at 2:23pm
Hats off to Udyan !!

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Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2007 at 2:50pm
Prosperity - Did you manage to get rid off the cement bags which was previously on your broad shoulders in form of India Cement.
 
 


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: prosperity
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2007 at 3:47pm
I decided i wont ... Somehow i have this feeling that cement sector, specially india cement has to see new highs in this year !
 
Govt. Price Control won't happen ... Media has done its job, to start with !
Inflation would be brought under control within next 2 months ....
 
EV/tonne and EPS for india cements is attractive within the sector..
 
India's infrastructure story is far from over ... Cement still has to boom .. atleast for next 1-2 yrs ..
 
FM has got a good reply to cement announcements in budget ..
Cement companies won't buckle so easily ..
 


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Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 1:43pm
"Cement prices to stay firm for 1 year. We firmly said that to Cement companies" - Minister saheb
 
Defining day for India today, should be christened "Minister Day".
 
Ministers decide market prices. Welcome back License Raj.
 
 


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 4:39pm

The Indian cement sector is like an Indian three-wheeler, which sucks a lot of diesel but cannot go beyond 30. Performance of these stocks is as erratic as electricity supply in an Indian summer. - Samir Arora



-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: nikhil090
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 4:59pm
These sort of things bring a lot of uncertainity in the mind of investors. Through the impact on profits may not be high, the sentiment is completely bruised. First it was Cricket sports feed to DD, then ban on futures trading, now fixing cement prices.. These things unsettle me.. What can be the govt. next target to get populist votes :
1. Stop foreign and big retail guys
2. CAS to be rolled back - every channel to be free
3. Banks to give 60% loans to farmers etc

These are scary thoughts, and I sincerely hope that they are not true.. But just give a thought.. Can we escape this somehow?


Posted By: vivekkumar_in
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 11:33pm
To prevent big investors & FIIs from Profitting & not Profiteering

- Govt can come up with strict intra day limits for Sensex stocks like say 2%
- Fixes top cealing for Sensex for a fiscal year & Close BSE after it reaches a limit say 14500 and have it closed for rest of the year..LOL
- Bring back Long Term Capital Gains Tax ..This is what the interview will look like (imaginative.. No intent to criticize anybody)

Kewal Nath: 'Long term or short term.. profit is a profit..And anybody who gets profit should pay taxesClap
Udayash : Sir are you suggesting that Long term capital gains will be taxed?
Kewal Nath: I am not saying that. I am saying we will consider that..(meaning ...I just signed a GO for that).. We can allow profit but not allow profiteering....(Smiles contently as if he gave a quotable quote)
Udayash: Sir where does Profiteering come in play here? Is'nt it the economy that governs the stock markets on a longer run...
Kewal Nath: I am suggesting the extra fat to be trimmed .. I myself am going for jogging everyday around 10 Janpath road (to get blessings from Madamji) You know physical exercise is always good...either it is longer run or shorter run..
Udayash: Won't this hurt the retail participants who participate in the capital markets and contribute for the economy ?
Kewal Nath: I have talked to many retail investors and they say this is not a pain.. if they have pain they should go to a doctor.. Our Health minister Manbumani has made many improvements around AIIMS...
Udayash: But sir we can play sound bytes after sound bytes of Mutual funds managers, analysts from leading fund houses & FII analysts opinioning this will hurt the inflow of money into the economy .
Kewal Nath: Well .. you can have your talks.. We will have our own.. All talks are not your talks..(god only knows what he means by that)
Udayash: Did the govt help out the retail investors when the Sensex was in a Bear grip in 90s and later in 2000s ? Why now do you want to get a chunk of the money only when the markets are doing good? Are you or are you not aware that such cycles happen in the market & it is their inherent tendency?
Kewal Nath:I don't want to comment on the performance of the previous governments. I personally have been a  long term investor for a very long time since the sensex was invented ..Clap
Udayash: Sir if you turn at the historical charts of sensex no body made money all through 90s and many significantly lost their portfolio..
Kewal Nath: I don't know whom you are refering too.. I can personnaly show lots of proof.. In fact some of my close friends made lots of moneye money during that time... (buddy Mehta , buddy parikh etc..)
Udayash: If a bear run occurs and investors start losing , will you provide them with considerable tax relief
Kewal Nath: There is no point answering a question starting with an 'If'
Udayash: I don't think people elected you for making such unfriendly economic policies and it is certain that you should be allowed to go...
Kewal Nath: Goes blank...Snack time ... (Is seen happily saying to his followers .. Wow that was a great interview.. His supporters all congratulate him for hitting a sixer of every question...)
Udayash: Well.. Thats the Commerce minister & a seasoned investor for you folks .. At least he confirmed that the long term capital tax will be brought back... God save India...

P.S:
Not intended to hurt/criticise anyone.. Only meant as a humour...



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Often we forget there's a company behind every stock,and there's only one reason why stocks go up. Companies go from doing poorly to doing well or small companies grow to large companies.
P Lynch


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 8:53am
That was excellently done. Makes for some interesting reading.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 9:43am
Great work Vivek

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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 09/Mar/2007 at 10:55am

Good work Vivek ji. Sometimes raw truth should be spoken(sometimes), even it is bitter.



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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 12/Mar/2007 at 8:32am
Vivekkumar jee
 
That piece on Kewal Nath & Udayash is excellent!! Very creative!!
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2007 at 10:03pm

BasantJi... I had a talk to my Friend who is a Cement Analyst for a foregin Brokerage who recommended me Long .. shree cement and Short ACC trade.

He said me today that they have made a killing on that trade as they shorted ACC in a ratio of 3:1.


-------------
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2007 at 11:05pm

BasantJi... I had a talk to my Friend who is a Cement Analyst for a foregin Brokerage who recommended me Long .. shree cement and Short ACC trade. _He said me today that they have made a killing on that trade as they shorted ACC in a ratio of 3:1

_____________________________________________________
 
This sector has seen a lot of blood letting! Every one from the minister to the analyst seems to be on a killing spree Wink
 
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2007 at 6:01am
This sector has seen a lot of blood letting!
-----------
101% agree. People have started saying that capacity expansion will take care of growth etc. etc. But please remember sugar case. Cement will not underperformed like sugar as cement as inherent demand for next 3-4 years is quite strong but it will not outperform also. In commodities, one can make money only and only if he is ahead of price curve. long or short. Sugar is very close example of what is happening now for cement.
Please remember sugar, cement, tyre, paper are some sectors in which companies see small numbers of years in profit in it's whole life time.


-------------
Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2007 at 10:33am
Originally posted by vipul

This sector has seen a lot of blood letting!
-----------
101% agree. People have started saying that capacity expansion will take care of growth etc. etc. But please remember sugar case. Cement will not underperformed like sugar as cement as inherent demand for next 3-4 years is quite strong but it will not outperform also. In commodities, one can make money only and only if he is ahead of price curve. long or short. Sugar is very close example of what is happening now for cement.
Please remember sugar, cement, tyre, paper are some sectors in which companies see small numbers of years in profit in it's whole life time.
 
Well said. But none of the investors/analysts seem to be thinking like that - at least for the moment.


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 15/Mar/2007 at 11:34am
Well said. But none of the investors/analysts seem to be thinking like that - at least for the moment.
--------------
People seems to have forgotten fundamentals. High liquidity is to blame.


-------------
Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.


Posted By: prosperity
Date Posted: 16/Mar/2007 at 5:53pm

Recent hike has passed the extra tax levied ultimately to the consumer....

   
So no change in fundamentals, profit margins, etc. since the budget increase has been passed as the hike...
  
Infact the increase in budget is effective from next financial yr onwards and hike has already happened :) :)  more profit for this month ...
  
Cement demand would grow more stronger ....
 
I am bullish on cement and not because i own it ... but because govt. cant dampen growth on this any further ....
 
cheers....
 
PS: I am NOT adding, but holding on to my India Cements ..


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Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 16/Mar/2007 at 6:27am
I am expecting some more strong steps from govt to curb inflation. All commodities are surely their target. Till UP election is not over, expect worst from govt.

-------------
Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.



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