TTK PRESTIGE
Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Investment Ideas - Creating winning portfolios!
Forum Name: Stock Synopsis
Forum Discription: A bried discussion of companies on very specific matters. Normally this is the prelude for further research as always members would be discussing quality companies with good management only
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2186
Printed Date: 28/Apr/2024 at 3:28pm
Topic: TTK PRESTIGE
Posted By: hit2710
Subject: TTK PRESTIGE
Date Posted: 22/Jun/2009 at 11:35am
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Hi all,
TTK Prestige is into pressure cookers and kitchen appliances and is a market leader alongwith hawkins in the segment. Its prestige brand has been recognised as a superbrand.
. The company's strategy is to transform itself from a mere pressure cooker company to a total kitchen solution company . TTK is expected to benefit from these initiatives, as margins in direct retailing are higher than those in traditional dealer sales. March 04 March 05 March 06 March 07 March 08 9mDec08 146 189 231 293 340 330 SALES
0.21 3.81 7.11 11.77 20.67 18.87 NP
ronw 31 and return on long term funds 42 as on March 08 and total debt: equity was 0.7 promoters stake above 70 percent.
Dividend for fy 08 was 3.5
New Developments include launching Prestige smart kitchens which provide complete kitchen solutions like pressure cooker, non stick cookware (where it is also market leader), other electrical kitchen appliances , modular kitchens etc. Prestige has 173 smart kitchen outlets across 16 states in around 117 towns.
Currently company is available at a pe of around 6 with expected eps for fy 09 in excess of 20. With aggressive retail foray and launches of new kitchen products which have gained good acceptability prestige has shown good growth.
Positives:
1. Established brand since many years.
2. Good sales and net profit growth since past few years.
3. Market for modular kitchens and other premium products set to increase with affording middle class and nuclear families.
4. Available at cheap valuations for such a company
Negatives:
promoters had cancelled delisting offer after having considered it.
------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Replies:
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 23/Jun/2009 at 3:31pm
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They also have another listed entity...TTK Healthcare. Some investors do not like that. A few more irritants as I perceived it vis a vis Hawkins:
1. Higher CEO salary.
2. Recognized revenues when builders moved into their land. (something like what DLF does)
3. Higer proportion of revenues is used in raw materials.
Overall, i thought that TTK Prestige might increase their EPS at a faster clip as they seem to be trying more ideas than Hawkins but the promoter unreliability is what made me prefer Hawkins.
Not to forget, RJ is invested in this one....so it has predigree backing it.
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Posted By: studentoflife
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2009 at 6:14pm
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Considering the valuations can the current management irritants be ignored is the question I suppose? |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2009 at 6:59pm
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I feel ceo salary is a company matter and if a ceo is more competent and gives consistent better results, he should be paid more. We don't know how much Hawkins ceo is paid so comparision is difficult.
Regarding the revenues from land etc I am not very conversant with the issue.
Regarding raw material cost it can be improved upon because sourcing or raw material can be done in a better manner.
But if a company delivers consistent profits year after year, I think we should look at the bigger picture and not go too much into the details. Plus the promoters have a higher stake of more than 70 percent so they will be more worried about the profitability than the individual investors. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2009 at 9:06pm
It's in their annual report.
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Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 30/Jun/2009 at 8:05pm
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Result Update:
Sales 416 crores (fy09) against 340 crores (fy08)
Net Profit 22.38 crores (fy 09) against 20.57 crores (fy 08) For fy 08, there was an extraordinary income of 2.94 crores. Otherwise net profit for fy 08 was 17.73 and hence after adjustment for extraordinary, net profit grows from 17.73 crores to 22.38 crores a growth of about 30 %.
EPS for fy 09 19.77
Dividend declared 50 %
PROMOTERS STAKE HAS INCREASED FROM 72.37 TO 74.92 % from FY 08 to FY 09. No stake pledged. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 01/Jul/2009 at 2:27pm
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Q4 RESULTS UPDATE.
For q4, the company declared sales of 86 crores,(q4 fy08 67crores ) , operating profit of 5.87 crore (q4 fy09 2.59) and net profit of 3.51 crore (q4 fy08 np before extraordinary 2.03, after extraordinary gain 4.92 crores)
If we exclude extraordinary income during fy 08, the company has shown almost 50 % growth in net profits for q4 fy09 as compared to q4 fy 08.
INCREASED PROMOTERS STAKE-- Does it point to another speculation about delisting?? Views invited.
------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 24/Jul/2009 at 3:55pm
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Something cooking? The share price closing above its perennial resistance at 142-143. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: studentoflife
Date Posted: 24/Jul/2009 at 6:26pm
| Delisting offer price was not specified.If delisted what could be the offer price? |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 31/Jul/2009 at 3:35pm
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TTK PRESTIGE FY 10 Q1 RESULTS UPDATE
NET SALES 98.35 CRORES (Q1 FY09 85.66) NET PROFIT 7.39 CRORES (Q1 FY09 5.1 ) EPS FOR QUARTER 6.53 VERY GOOD START TO THE NEW FISCAL YEAR FOR THE COMPANY. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: nikhil090
Date Posted: 31/Jul/2009 at 9:25pm
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Great results from hawkins once again.. With every quarter we can increase holdings on this one :)=
TTK results were also good.
BOth the companies are now available with roughly similar valuations - hawkins slightly higher than ttk. If TTK does not diversify unnecessarily, it can be almost as good as hawkins..
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Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 01/Aug/2009 at 8:02pm
VERY TRUE ESPECIALLY LOOKING AT THE GROWTH OF HAWKINS AND TO SOME EXTENT TTK. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 02/Aug/2009 at 11:45am
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STOCK UP 10 % TODAY.
RESULTS SEEM TO HAVE IGNITED GAS UNDER THE COOKER. RESISTANCE OF AROUND 140-145 CROSSED AT LAST. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 14/Aug/2009 at 1:12pm
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The operational inefficiencies of this company was what was dissapointing earlier. Looks like they are working overtime on that. Their chairman referred to this and talked about working capital improvements.
This operational focus, coupled with the extra initiatives, expansion plans is making this company very very attractive.
One doubt i have is that wouldn't their Smart Kitchen network create bad blood with their dealers?
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Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2009 at 7:46pm
I don't think there will be any bad blood because the smart kitchens are very few in number to affect the sales of the dealers. A couple of stores in a city of 20 lacs is not going to materially affect the dealer sentiment. Besides they don't offer special discounts at smart kitchens shops. Regarding the attractiveness of the stock, the charts seem to suggest improved sentiments because the stock consolidated below 140=148 for a long time and now consolidating above that level comfortably. Stock seems to have broken out of inverted head and shoulders pattern and now ready to soar. I am sitting tight on my position. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: cubeinvestments
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2009 at 4:23am
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the company also has a real estate element to it.. ------------- CUBE INVESTMENTS |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2009 at 7:29am
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I had a look at Ttk in March this year and skipped it because the management tried to buy back and delist a couple of times last year. Promoters that are inclined on delisting and buyback would not want a very high market cap. Also I have seen Ttk sell through large format stores and does give a plethora of discounts and offers unlike Hawkins probably that explians the margin difference the two but the product variety does seem significantly higher in Ttk without doubt the argument is on Management integrity really. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2009 at 10:00am
It needs to be worked out how much it can contribute to the stock price. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 17/Aug/2009 at 7:33am
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TTK Prestige is like 3m India, mouth full of hot molasses - too hot to swallow to sticky to spit out. Good brand without rewarding or aggressive management. |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 17/Aug/2009 at 11:35am
the hot molasses seems to have given good sweet taste today. Stock up to 175  ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 19/Aug/2009 at 8:23pm
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TTK AND HAWKINS BOTH UP TODAY IN A WEAK MARKET. PARTIAL PROFITS BOOKED IN TTK. SEEMS TO HAVE RUN UP A LOT. TARGETS OF INVERSE HEAD AND SHOULDERS PATTERN ACHIEVED AROUND 185 TODAY.
BOTH STOCKS NOW SEEM TO BE SEEN AS DEFENSIVE BETS IN A VOLATILE MARKET. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 17/Sep/2009 at 1:15am
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I visited a TTK outlet today. It was a small but really compact store.
I have noticed 2-3 TTK outlets in the city and all of them are in busy but not so high rental places.
As usual I was impressed by their array of products. They also had a few eureka forbes products and some other non TTK products as well.
I wanted to enquire about the prices but given my usual shabby appearance the shopkeeper ignored me.
 |
Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2009 at 6:27pm
Long time back, I had gone to a high-end car showroom in my typical appearance - leather chappals & a school bag (where I keep my laptop).
As soon as he saw me coming in, the salesman locked the doors of the car on display and went off to have his lunch!
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2009 at 1:46am
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I will fit in really well with both of you.
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful. |
Posted By: Circuit
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2009 at 10:30am
Me too.... Once I went to a Hotel asking if they have room available. Looking at me he asked where is the passenger?
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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2009 at 10:43am
| I have a totally different experience whenever some salesman sees me they rejoice that a easy bakra has come. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2009 at 11:14am
Passenger or guest  ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: Circuit
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2009 at 12:20pm
Indeed, the guy at reception thought I am auto rickshaw driver, so he asked me about my passenger and his guest  |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2009 at 12:45pm
But with companies like TTK it would not matter because both the auro rickshaw driver and his passenger are capable of buying one pressure cooker in a decade!     ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2009 at 5:00pm
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futura is that the hawkins brand? i see an adv on tv these days pots and pans adv to be precise
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things |
Posted By: prabhakarkudva
Date Posted: 19/Sep/2009 at 5:42pm
Yeah it is. ------------- Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time. |
Posted By: prabhakarkudva
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2009 at 9:06pm
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I had been to Big Bazaar today with my mother(she was pleasantly surprised ).I
saw that they only had TTK prestige cookware displayed and not even a
single Hawkins item.I walked up to the store manager and asked why they
dont stock Hawkins.He told me tht they've stopped stocking Hawkins
since about 2 years and they are not selling any new Hawkins items from
Big Bazaar.I asked if its the case all over India and he replied in the
affirmative. So is there a problem with Hawkins and Big Baazar?I would like fellow teddies who like Hawkins or TTK to put a visit to the respective Big Bazaars and confirm this. Also the store manager told me that Prestige is coming up with a number of new items apart from cookers like premium gas stoves etc and hawkins was only into cookers mainly. Also i was told Prestige does a lot of outsourcing in its manufacturing as in it gets the items made from one else and just brands it before selling. Good outing. ------------- Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time. |
Posted By: studentoflife
Date Posted: 25/Sep/2009 at 5:05am
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If that is true ,that is great news..:)
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Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 26/Sep/2009 at 2:14pm
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Prestige is also selling induction cooking ranges. Anyone tried this? The pros and cons are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooker - here . From the wiki, it would seem to require special cooking utensils as well. ------------- |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 10:01am
1. Higher CEO Salary: As per latest Annual Reports of the respective companies, the CEO Salaries are : TTK : 87,69,634/- & Hawkins : 70,64,896/- including all the remunerations. While the figures says that TTK CEO's salary is on the higher side, but TTK sales are 401Cr and Hawkins is 241Cr. 2: Recognized revenues when builders moved into their land. What do you mean by this?? They have just changed the drawings from mall to Commercial Buildings and Residential Flats. Since the land belongs to TTK, cost of the construction will be borne by the builder. 43% of the total constructed space will be given to TTK and the construction is expected to take minimum of 3 years. It is not yet decided as of now whether they will sell that space or give for rent/lease. Without knowing when the construction would be over and would be the rent/lease rate, how will they recongnise the revenues?? 3. Higer proportion of revenues is used in raw materials.Just worked out for both FY09 & FY08 ( in bracket) for both companies and here are the details: HAWKINS TTK CONSUMPTION OF RAW MATERIALS - % OF SALES 34.68(35.96) 29.66(32.58) - % OF EXPENDITURE 39.27(39.8) 32.73(36.04) EMPLOYEE COSTS - % OF SALES 13.03(13.40) 7.83(8.40) - % OF EXPENDITURE 14.76(14.83) 8.65(9.29) OTHER EXPENDITURE - % OF SALES 30.48(31.56) 27.60(27.0) - % OF EXPENDITURE 34.50(34.93) 30.46(29.87) Let me know in case if I have missed something?? ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 10:19am
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Chinki
The figures listed by you are favourable to TTK. But, please keep in mind that Hawkins is a leader in Pressure Cookers. Their business is more focussed on cooking utensils. Finally, management has a better reputation. In my opinion the premium commanded by Hawkins over TTK will sustain.
------------- When all else is lost, the future still remains. - Christian Nestell Bovée |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 10:45am
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Of late the stock seems to have outperformed Hawkins. ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:29am
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I don't know whether you have checked the no. of pressure cookers sold by each of these companies. Here the figures ( figures in the bracket are for the last year) as taken out from the respective latest Annual Reports:
HAWKINS TTK PRESSURE COOKERS: 23,39,444 23,75,223 (20,44,672) (21,33,118) COOKWARES : 6,41,349 15,26,222 (5,65,177) (11,93,269) So the leader is ???? It is true that Hawkins is more focussed into Cookers & Cookwares. Does it not make sense to sell other items which are required in the kitchen under the same shop?? Will it not give additional sales?? Most of the Prestige Smart Kitchen Showrooms are run by franchisees. People will come forward to open them only if it is viable. Instead of allowing them to sell some other company products, it make sense to sell it under company brand. Regarding reputation, I don't think attempt by management to de-list itself can be compared to something of Satyam nature. While there is no doubt that attempt (de-listing) was not good for the investors, but they have been in the business for more than 50 years. If they wanted to do something of that nature, they need not wait such a long time. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:35am
DEBTOR DAYS 64.96 45.57 53.60 53.00 44.36 CURRENT RATIO 2.44 2.30 2.08 1.86 1.71 QUICK RATIO 1.00 0.86 0.79 0.89 0.91 DEBT/EQUITY 5.73 5.05 6.49 4.14 1.83 INT.COVERAGE 1.53 2.81 3.06 3.66 4.98 INV. DAYS 117.86 103.77 102.27 76.71 51.09 INV.TURNOVER 3.10 3.52 3.57 4.76 7.14
------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:42am
Just for information, they are developing 6.75L sq.ft space in their old factory premises (Doorvaninagar, K.R.Puram, Bangalore). TTK will get 43% of this constructed space after 3 to 4 years. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:46am
The owner has two such shops in Bangalore and one in Doddaballapur which is a Tier-III city. He was very happy and had made profit in the first year of operations. He was talking good of the management and said that they supported ( by way of discounts and promotional offers) during first year of operations. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:50am
Infact they are planning to open a new factory in Himachal Pradesh by the end of the current financial year, where they want to start manufacturing these items also. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 30/Sep/2009 at 11:56am
------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 11:48pm
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Hi Chinki,
Basically my observations is relatively dated now. These finding were based on observations between 2003 and 2008.
1. If i remember correctly the Hawkins top guy was earning 50L then and TTK was at 70+L.
2. Again, if i remember correctly in 2008 TTK recognized extraordinary revenues when the builder was appointed and he entered the premises.
3. On raw materials ... here is what i have in my chit sheet... (not sure if this is correct...my comment was based on this)
TTK 08 - Sales 340 Material consumption - 179
Hawkins 08 - Sales 218 Material consumption - 97
But this was 2008
In 2009 they seemed to have turned around on various business parameters as well.
Since you are interested in this company do read their MD's address in bse site.
It's a real pleasure.
I now hold TTK in much higher esteem.
Come to think of it:
The raw material issue that i's talking about..may be i could have taken it as an opportunity to improve rather than as a negative thing.
Personally i think TTK will increase their EPS faster than Hawkins simply because they are trying harder (the product portfolio says it all) and they seem more keen.
While i have marginal interest in this company (post the humilation i had to bear in the TTK Shop)...one area of concern for shareholders might be the fact that promoters have tried to delist in the past.
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Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 2:50am
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Subbuji, I was only updating with the latest details.
As on date, I donot hold either of these stocks. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 8:35am
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So what do you think about recognizing revenues with this statement?
The existing structures have been demolished. Sanction of plan for putting up a Mall of international standards is awaited. Your company will have a separate income stream of rentals as and when the project is complete and portions leased out. In the meantime the company has recognized capital income of Rs.21.38 crores pursuant to the granting of permission to the developer to enter the property. This income is classified under Extra-ordinary income.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 9:17am
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In simple English it is inconsistent with the standard accounting norms in a more brutal sense it is akin to a misstatement and misrepresentation of facts. Somehow I do not like companies whose promoters want to delist. It is for that reason that I never bought Blue Dart which otherwise would have been one of the best franchises in India. A promoter who has intentions of delist would never like the market cap to go up. It is really simple why would you like to buy something at a higher price. Also they are spreading themselves wide and thin. When someone asks me about TTK and Hawkins I say think about Titan and Pantaloon and you would know the difference. Actually in March 2009 I started analysing TTK but then as a competitor study I looked at Hawkins and found it to be much better but RJ is reportedly rumored to be buying TTK but that does nothing to change opinions for anyone who wants to bet on fundamentals. TTK was also in the news for having merged or done something with its US subs and that was also put up under the scanner. I do not remember the details right now. Also TTK can double or triple from here so please do your own homework because my opinion may be biased but I am not enthused by it.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 9:33am
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Hi Basant Sir,
Yes, they had a company Mantra or something in the US which they transferred to a group company.
This was the exact kind of small small issues which cropped up when doing a comparison of TTK and Hawkins. Each one could however be defended individually.
This was really dissapointing because it always seemed that TTK will probabily grow faster
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 9:49am
| An excellent interview from a TTK executive http://www.bim.edu/pdf/cwisdom/Interview_TTK_Prestige.pdf - Link |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 9:58am
Basantji, in general, many MNC's would also like to delist. I understand that many, many years ago they were forced to list. ESAB India also wants to (or wanted to) delist but you are / were interested in ESAB. Do you know if they have changed their mind? ESAB also is reported to have bought shares of Ador Welding! ------------- |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/Oct/2009 at 11:03am
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Delisting is good for anyone who is looking at making a quick buck a one time 50% but if you want to compound money delisting is bad. Also a stock that is a potential delisting candidate has a downside protection and that helps in times of a o downturn. It you want to play the delisting theme look at Godfrey Philips it is a potential candidiate but the waiting period could take you well into the next decade! When we can make 20% CAGR in conventional themes why look at unconventinal themes? I have no idea on ESAB's strategy at the current time but their delisting threats do not make me happy it indicates that the possibility of making long term secular gains is not so high. I have been adversely affected by the delisting mess. I had a decent position in E-Serve in 2001 and the stock went up 6 times in about 3 years and then was taken over by Citi their parent until Citi bought them over the company used to grow at 25% and post their buyout it started growing in excess of 30% (from what I heard) also if they had run Eserve well this could have been a five to ten bagger from there also but that did not happen. Institutions and MFs love delisting candidates because they provide sudden one time NAV gains as they arm twist the management into higher prices as they did in case of E-Serve. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: master
Date Posted: 19/Oct/2009 at 10:18pm
Excerpted from Hindu Business Line - on TTK Prestige The single largest brand
The average annual production of pressure cookers over the last five years was 40 lakh units. In 2008-09, TTK Prestige, which sold 23.7 lakh units of pressure cookers, accounted for over half this number. The company has been seeing a sharp increase in sales year after year, suggesting that it has managed to gain market share. TTK Prestige’s sales have grown at an average 21 per cent in the last five years, while industry growth rates were in single-digits.
Hawkins Cookers, the only other listed player, is the company’s major rival with a presence mainly in
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Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:07pm
| Sold Patels Airtemp, Bombay Burmah, I & P, Acrysil, and loaded TTK Prestige |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:12pm
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Looks like Amit has joined the band of active investors ! What is I & P? ------------- |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:26pm
 Could not resist, I have been thinking more than anything for whole of last week about TTK Prestige, I could not desist after their numbers. Franchise opportunity but two faced promoters. My TTK story is same as your LIC HF  . Sold at 150 rebuilding now. I did not have fresh money hence liquidated others.
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Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:31pm
I think that  it's a good decision. Frankly, I never saw the point in investing in holding companies if the dividend yield is not attractive.One exception could be Balmer Lawrie Investments. ------------- |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:38pm
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Thanks. I believe everyone passes through that phase in life, getting enamoured by value in holding companies...
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 1:33pm
Hi Amit,
Looks like you have really kicked the TTK price upstairs.
 What happend to Ador Fontech?
Did you buy/hold that one...i think you were one of the folks who popularized the stock on this board
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 2:31pm
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another difference between ttkp and hawkins is the publicity part ttk is getting famous on tv and newspapers whereas hawkins remains media shy
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 2:38pm
Still holding Ador Fontech, liquidated some when TTKP fell to 310 today. Had small position in Venus Remedies, sold out in favour of TTKP. When did you get into TTKP ? Regards |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 2:39pm
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I think over 10 lacs shares changed hand whereas public holding is around 20 lacs. Where can we find the actual deliver % age any idea ?
Thanks |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 2:43pm
Good to hear you're still onto Ador Fontech.
 I bought TTK P last week
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Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 2:55pm
------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 3:00pm
Thank you very much, I got it on nse website
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Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 5:36pm
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This scrip had an interesting day today. Were there any fundamental news / rumours to trigger the intraday slide? All the same, it ended marginally up. Looking at its intraday chart again gives a bad feeling of it being taken up to allow someone to exit at a good price. NSE doesn't give the intraday volumes versus time but if someone has access to such information it would be interesting to see on what type of volumes the stock rose ~20% before reversing altogether. One can see http://www.bseindia.com/price_finder/price_vol.asp?scripcd=517506&scripname=TTK%20PRESTIG - this . Don't like it at all. ------------- |
Posted By: prabhakarkudva
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 5:59pm
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Even Hawkins tracked this movement timewise but with usual volumes of around 8-10k.
------------- Take your chances and keep them in a box until a quieter time. |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 10:23pm
If you have reached this conclusion after looking at the intraday charts of both Hawkins and TTK Prestige using BSE's Stock Reach, I have no comment! ------------- |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:43pm
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There were two bulk exits from TTKP
http://www.myiris.com/newsCentre/storyShow.php?fileR=20091020183213200&dir=2009/10/20&secID=livenews |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 12:47pm
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And apparently above guy, (YOGESH SHASHIKUMAR SAVADEKAR) whoever he was also holding 2.85% of Hawkins Cooker
http://sebiedifar.nic.in/shareptn_report_pub_detail_lat.asp?comp_cd=INE979B01015&year=2005&qua_end_month=06 |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 1:55am
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Looks like he also has/had good deal of holdings in Bright Brothers, Dai-Ichi karkaria.....
The price movement was really weird to say the least
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Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 7:55am
Thanks, Amit & Subu. But to my mind this is quite easy to do for an illiquid stock that is in the news. If one looked at the StockReach chart, one could see that the 20% upmove was on negligible volumes but it got peoples' interest. Presumably a lot of orders were in queue at 20% up and lower. Then comes this first order, most likely a market order and not a limit order to catch all the rabbits in the headlights. That brought it all back to zero. The same couldn't be done twice in the same day. Maybe, bakras were in short supply. So he took what he got??? BTW, nothing illegal here!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 8:03am
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investigative reporting at its very best! btw have you seen the movie the slaughter of the lambs
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 8:10am
Maybe that's a Compact Disc India production ( = doesn't exist) . But I have seen Silence of the Lambs.------------- |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 9:57am
But could it be possible that the 20% upmove was due to some sort of circular trading. Then surely it would be illegal.
It is so easy. Long time back in a college stock market competition some participants won the contest simply by bidding up an illiquid stock and showing large gain the last day. (i think it was Tata Honeywell)
So Mr. Savadekar with his infinite resources can do much more i guess
Anyways, it's all part of the game.
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Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 10:51am
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Yesterday, 15.52% is the percentage deliverable qty to the total traded qty at NSE. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: prashantmohta
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2009 at 11:18am
| its very important to see todays closing price. |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2009 at 12:20pm
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http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/ttk-prestige-eyes-rs-500cr-revfy10_420072.html But this is "breaking news" so the story is not complete. ------------- |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2009 at 1:06pm
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Nothing big about the sales turnover (around 20 to 24% growth over last year).
But margins are definitely. Their average net margins for the last 5 years has been 4.28. If they could do Rs.55 crores, then it will be around 11% (55/500) which is more than double. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2009 at 2:36pm
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An observation, if you bought this stock in 2005, this would have been a bad investment until 2008, flattish for three years. Having entered on any day in 2002 or first half of 2003 calendar, you would be pretty on 26 bags. There is scope for a fancy PE in both TTK and Hawkins.
20% growth and 10 PE is good deal Cheers |
Posted By: rakhi183
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2009 at 4:01pm
| Chinki.. sorry to point out there.. but 55 crores is the PBT.. PAT would come to around 40 crores..which gives a pat margin of 7.3%.. still a good improvement over the last yr though |
Posted By: CHINKI
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2009 at 4:22pm
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Rakhi, thanks for that correction. But nothing to feel sorry about that. I missed that point when I went through the article. ------------- TOUGH TIMES NEVER LAST, BUT TOUGH PEOPLE DO |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 1:06pm
| us subsidiary known as manttra that was transferred out of ttk prestige, is a trading company. its cookers are labelled manttra, they are made in ttk prestige's factories and brand name is still owned by ttk prestige. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 04/Nov/2009 at 1:08pm
| the above manttra subsidiary sells wares in the us in major supermarkets, esp. in sears store. |
Posted By: kunz1981
Date Posted: 05/Nov/2009 at 7:15am
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Had been reading on this company today. Seems really interesting. Some preliminary observations:
1. Sees itself as a complete kitchen solutions provider - target market size estimated at Rs. 3,500 crores 3 years ago by the company. This seems quite a small figure considering 200 million households in India.
2. Q2 FY10 results roughly showed 200bp improvment in cost of goods sold over the last year. Plus definite downward trend in "other operating expenses" possibly due to operating leverage
3. So I would think the company's trough PAT margins should be around 6-7%, (compared to FY10 likely margin of 8-9%) assuming RM prices move adversely in the future. This PAT margin is after a Current tax/PBT ratio of 32%
4. Geojit report mentions that company is fully debt free as of June 2009 and also will be cash positive even after the capex spent on new Uttarakhand plant
5. Geojit estimates the current value of Bangalore land of 6.5 acres at Rs.75 crores. Whereas discounted value of the developed property (TTK's share) is estimated to be Rs.140 crores. Even assuming 50 crores as the value for surplus land, TTK trades at PE of 7x FY10 earnings (assuming PAT of Rs.40 crores which should be exceeded if we assume 9% PAT margin on mgmt guided sales of 480 crores)
6. Assuming low RM is an anomaly for this year, sustainable PAT will be 31 crores (considering 6.5% PAT margin) which would still mean a PE of 9x
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Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 06/Nov/2009 at 12:20pm
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Hi Kunz, Can you please send a link to/upload geojit report
Thanks |
Posted By: rajnsharma
Date Posted: 06/Nov/2009 at 12:26pm
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I think this is the one you are looking for...
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news_html_files/news_attachment/2009/New%20Buy%20Recommendation%20-%20TTK%20Prestige%20Ltd.pdf - TTK |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 06/Nov/2009 at 3:26am
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Lovely,
So 5 Rs EPS accretion annually for no debt One time gain in property Three types of retail formats, lone runner in organized kitchen franchising I pretended to be their retail customer for buying a single cooker, from Dallas, TX. They replied in two days by email as to where I can buy Manttra products. I found that good experience. Amit |
Posted By: kunz1981
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 12:41pm
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I have emailed the company with following questions. Lets see what the response is
- I read that the new Uttaranchal plant will be up and running this
fiscal itself. From the next fiscal what is the additional positive impact you see on the bottomline due to this plant? - Of the total revenues roughly what would be the split of Urban vs.
Rural and North India vs. South India? - What % of turnover would be roughly made up of replacement vis-a-vis
new sales especially in the context of the pressure cooker segment? - With regards the retail formats, can you briefly explain the
economics. What is the kind of investment which goes into a typical Prestige Smart Kitchen store and the kind of returns the company makes presently? - With regards the property development project in Bangalore can you
please elaborate on the current status of the project. Also I read that Company plans to earn Rentals from the Office complex while only residentials will be sold outright. As a company known so well for Kitchen products don’t you think it may dilute Management attention from core business and investors may view it negatively? - TTK Prestige’s return on net worth has been consistently lower than
that of the nearest competitor Hawkins. What are the steps the management is contemplating in order to expand Return on Equity going forward? - Where do you see the company in the next five years in terms of its
strategic positioning and turnover aspirations? |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 2:46am
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You can call up at this number (+91-80-22217438) and ask for Ms Manjul, she will be able to find out answers. I have rarely got reply by email for investor queries. Earlier I emailed as a customer at their subsidiary http://www.manttra.com/
Whereabouts do you live ? They are opening new prestige smart kitchen shops which should be visited, should ask the owner about business performance etc. I asked my brother regarding a new store that opened 3 months back in Hyderabad, but he has no time for these things. Amit |
Posted By: kunz1981
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 2:57am
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Deleted |
Posted By: kunz1981
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 3:04am
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Thanks Amit for the number. Is she in the investor relations dept.? I live in London so cant visit their stores.
I think one of the important drivers for my decision to invest in this company would be whether the management is confident about ramping up margins and thus ROE (excluding low RM cost benefit which they have no control over but is cyclical in nature).
If you look at 5 yr, 3 yr share price performance Hawkins has comfortably outperformed TTK (Not that TTK has done badly) driven by consistently higher ROE.
Obviously we dont want to base our investment decisions purely on the past but thats a good indicator.
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Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 3:06am
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Yeah, she replies to investor queries.
Also, can you please add this question to your list: What is ratio of company owned v/s franchise stores. ROE will go through the roof once franchise stores increase. Do keep us updated here after you have spoken with her. One possible answer to your question can be derived from this statistic: About 80% of Urban India uses cookers and only 22% of Rural India. Rural India will upgrade when they get gas/lpg connection and can afford a cooker. 40% India lives in urban and 60% in Rural areas approx. So, biggest kicker will come from rural as well as new families. Cheers Amit |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 3:18am
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About Hawkins vs TTK. People are not investing in TTK @ TED as management wanted to delist. For ROE comparison Hawkins equity in 2005 was 7 crores and TTKs equity was 28 Crores. So, one has to go 10 years in past to find why that happened. If a company made losses in last 10 years its equity may be only 1 crore and may make profit of 10 crores on recovery. That looks like 1000% ROE. TTK tried many things including retail story and succeeded to a big extent, whereas Hawkins stuck only to cookers and expanded only to other utensils.
I am invested 40% in Hawkins and 30% in TTK Prestige. Hawkins may taper off at 20% growth whereas TTK may edge higher, so I will moving into this one from Hawkins over the next one year. But higher dividends of Hawkins will prevent it from being dragged down. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 07/Nov/2009 at 3:37am
| Another important metric I try to keep in my checklist is from S & P global challengers study - to look at Employee Cost/employees hired. You'll see that Hawkins is flat vs 30% growth for TTK Prestige. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 10/Nov/2009 at 8:56am
| http://www.livemint.com/2009/11/10215056/Cookware-concerns.html |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 10/Nov/2009 at 9:14am
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This is a normal movement. WHat is this guy trying to talk about? http://www.lme.co.uk/aluminium_graphs.asp
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 10/Nov/2009 at 10:32am
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You are correct. After I read it, I was telling my wife on way back from office about this story. Author is a jacka$$
It struck me again when I took printout and re read and he did not write the name of official from TTK Prestige, I understood it as a story from someone planted in media who wants the price down on these jewels, sour grapes. With 80% Rural India without cookers, and increasing product range, it has long way to go. 10% increase in aluminium which is itself only 55% part of raw material cost means nothing. I also came across a paper sometime back that there are about 250 regional cooker makers, if that did not do much...then this surely cant. On a side note, I believe these are billion $ businesses if handled correctly. You must have read about Pampered Chef acquired by Buffett. It was started by one woman who left job to follow her passion at home, its reached or crossed 1 Billion US$ in sales, its got direct selling model. http://www.pamperedchef.com/join_us/cju_your_life.html Probably we should take consulting assignment with them :)
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Posted By: rakhi183
Date Posted: 10/Nov/2009 at 10:56am
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The total raw material cost forms around 50% of the sales, and if 50% of the raw material cost is aluminium, then the aluminium consumption forms 25% of the total sales. Hence, for every 10% increase in the price of aluminium, the company would have to increase the sales price only by 2.5% (25%*10%)(excluding inflation) to maintain the same profit per unit sold. That should not be too difficult to pass on to the consumers. |
Posted By: amitdip
Date Posted: 11/Nov/2009 at 11:01pm
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I asked TTK Prestige and they have no clue about who made that statement. I have written to HT Media and Authors of that article to state the name of official of TTK Prestige but they have not come back yet.
I was feeling glad for theequitydesk.com being there to air our views so clicked on few Ads to support
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Posted By: shivkumar
Date Posted: 11/Nov/2009 at 11:04pm
No journo worth his/her salt would the name of a source. Even the editor would not know it. So don't try asking. |