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Intrinsic value of a stock

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Equity Valuation Techniques
Forum Discription: While valuing equities no individual technique works. Mostly it is a combination of techniques. Discuss the various techniques in equity valuation ranging from PE to RoE to Market Cap
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2029
Printed Date: 26/Apr/2024 at 4:16pm


Topic: Intrinsic value of a stock
Posted By: vijayM
Subject: Intrinsic value of a stock
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 8:56pm
Dear Basantji / Teddies,
 
Warren buffett has said it is not possible to find aaccurately, intrinsic value of a stock for anybody. If it would have been possible, then there would not have been so much difference in perception of a company's value by different people in the market.
 
However, there should be a way find intrinsic value at any given point of time using all important variables like eps, growth rate, interest rates etc.
Graham has suggested following equation in Intelligent investor:
 
value = TTMEPS (8.5 + 2 * GROWTH RATE)
 
FOR EX:
 
hdfc bank: value = 51(8.5 + 2*30)=3493
L&T            value = 40(8.5 + 2* 17)=1700
crisil           value= 184.5 (8.5+2*28.5)=12085
 
Note: I have used 10year avg historic growth rate for calculation purpose.
 
Whether the equation is reliable? or does it have limitations?
Any other method of finding a reliable intrinsic value including more parameters ?
 
I request Basantji & teddies to share their knowledge in this thread to help us in improving equity analysis.
 
regards
vijay


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If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett



Replies:
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 9:43pm
There seems t be something wrong in the equation! How can stocks trade at 2 times plus 8.5 times growth rate?
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: abhishekbasu
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:03pm
The complete Graham's formula is actually
Intrinsic Value=EPS*(8.5+(2*GROWTH))*4.4/Risk Free Rate

The explanation of this formula is given in Graham's Security Analysis. This formula provides a thumb-rule of what the intrinsic value could be. This is by no means a definitive figure.


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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:06pm
Can you indicate the page number on Security Analysis?


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:18pm
Here are two links:
http://www.stock-investment-made-easy.com/calculate-intrinsic-value.html - http://www.stock-investment-made-easy.com/calculate-intrinsic-value.html

and
http://www.teenanalyst.com/stocks/intrinsic.html - http://www.teenanalyst.com/stocks/intrinsic.html

However, there should be a way find intrinsic value at any given point of time using all important variables like eps, growth rate, interest rates etc.


No matter what, it will still be an estimate.

And, as we have seen over the years, at any given time sentiment overules any other parameters in determining the CMP.

Bluntly speaking, forward EPS, growth rate, and interest rates can only be guessed and current sentiment will influence the guess work.




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Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:18pm
Actually this formula is used to find out the EPS growth a stock needs to show to justify its price.

For instance, assume that a stock like TCS' value as of today is Rs 1,240 and its EPS is Rs 57.65. Now, these two figures can help us arrive at a growth rate in terms of percentage at which the company's profits need to grow to sustain a price of Rs 1,240.

Let us calculate 'g' for TCS by substituting the assumed values in Graham's formula.

1,240 = 57.65 * (8.5 + 2*g)

Therefore, 1,240/57.65 = 8.5 + 2*g

Therefore, 21.5 = 8.5 + 2*g

Therefore, 21.5 - 8.5 = 2*g

Therefore, 13 = 2*g

Therefore, g = 13/2

Therefore, g = 6.5.

So according to Graham's formula, for TCS to sustain a price of Rs 1,240 every year, its net profits need to grow at a rate of 6.5 per cent every year.

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"History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:30pm
page no. 295 on intelligent investor. no idea about other book.
 
vijay


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by basant

There seems t be something wrong in the equation! How can stocks trade at 2 times plus 8.5 times growth rate?
 
 
it is not 8.5 times. It is 8.5 + (2*growth rate)


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 9:43am
Following equation needs a correction:

Multiply the result by '0' in case of dishonest promoters, corrupt auditors etc.

On a serious note, during early days I used to look for such formulae. Experience has taught that there isn't any single easy formula for success in capital markets.



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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Nitesh_Inc
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 11:44am
Originally posted by kulman

Following equation needs a correction:

Multiply the result by '0' in case of dishonest promoters, corrupt auditors etc.

On a serious note, during early days I used to look for such formulae. Experience has taught that there isn't any single easy formula for success in capital markets.

 

 

Subjectivity is an integral element.

 

Management Adjustment Factor & Auditor Adjustment Factor (Scale of 0 to 1) should be multiplied to whatever forecasted prices that one arrives at using the “formulae”.

 

If only one can correctly rate the Managements & Auditors.

 

Then perhaps we may get the formula to success Wink


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An investor convinces himself, an analyst convinces others.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 17/Jan/2009 at 12:46pm
Besides as Buffett says...Businesses seldom operate in a tranquil, no-surprise environment, and earnings simply don’t advance smoothly (except, of course, in the offering books of investment bankers).




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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 17/Jan/2009 at 1:45pm
In India as long as the retail investor is alive and kicking (at himself) nothing goes to zero as long as youy pay the listing fees to the exchange. HFCL still trades in double digits and so does Global Tele and Silverline.
 
Originally posted by kulman

Following equation needs a correction:

Multiply the result by '0' in case of dishonest promoters, corrupt auditors etc.

On a serious note, during early days I used to look for such formulae. Experience has taught that there isn't any single easy formula for success in capital markets.



-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 20/Jan/2009 at 10:21pm

I wish to remind the teddies that this thread was started with the intension of getting some insight into the calculation of intrinsic value. Please share your knowledge with some case studies.

 
regards
vijayM


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 20/Jan/2009 at 10:33pm
I'm sorry you're not getting the help you want. Maybe because this calculation is based on some subjective factors.

By this I mean future values... which are always a matter of personal opinion.


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Posted By: nav_1996
Date Posted: 20/Jan/2009 at 10:34pm
How do we calculate intrinsic value of a NBFC? Is BV a good indicator. I am assuming that as per RBI guidance every Q, NPAs have to be written-off.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 20/Jan/2009 at 6:14am
RoE/Risk free rate of raturn times Book value is agood indicator.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 6:01pm

Dear Basantji, & Teddies

In one of the books on WB I found following methods of equity analyisis:

method1: Rate of return analysis:

parameters required:

a)ttmeps
b)ttmpe
c)10y avg growth rate (historic)
d)10y avg pe ratio
e)present price

step1:10 Y forward projected eps = ttmeps*(1+gr rate)**10

step2:10y forward price=10y avg pe * 10y forward eps
 
step3: Rate of return(ROR) is calculated by solving
              present price * (1+ ROR)**10 = 10 y fwd price
 
step4: if ROR > 15%, buy or hold the stock else sell.
 
Ex:1 : L&T
1)10y  fwd price = 40*(1+0.17)**10=192
2)10y fwd price = 25*192=4806 ....based on avg pe of 25
3)ROR=22.5% ....based on cmp of 640
conclusion: ROR>15%:BUY/HOLD
 
EX:2 : HDFC Bank
1)10y  fwd price = 510*(1+0.3)**10=703
2)10y fwd price = 30*703=21000  ....based on avg pe of 30
3)ROR=37.2% ....based on cmp of 872
conclusion: ROR>15% & >30%:Strong BUY/HOLD
 
Method 2:
analysis based on comparison with bond yield
 
required parameters:
a)bond yield
b)ttmeps & ttmpe
c)10 y avg historic growth rate
 
procedur: calculate earnings yield = 1/ pe for current year and a few projected years. If earnings yield crosses bond yield in 3 years, buy the stock else it is overvalued.
 
ex1: L&T
parameters: ttmeps=40,cmp=640, bond yield(current)=6%
earnings yield:
present:40/640 = 6.25%
1 y fwd:40*1.17/640=7.3%
2y fwd:40*1.17**2/640=8.5%
3y fwd:40*1.17**3/640=10%
Conclusion: buy/hold since yield>bond yield now itself and reaching 10% in 3 years
 
ex1: HDFC BK
parameters: ttmeps=51,cmp=872, bond yield(current)=6%
earnings yield:
present:51/872 = 5.84%
1 y fwd:51*1.3/872=7.6%
2y fwd:51*1.3**2/872=9.88%
3y fwd:51*1.3**3/872=12.8%
Conclusion: strong buy/ hold since yield though less than bond yield now, it is growing fast &  reaching 12.8% in 3 years
Conclusion: buy/hold since yield>bond yield now itself
 
 
comments/suggestions on above methods welcome.
 
regards
vijayM
 


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 6:06pm
I would think that these are different methods t one goal. Now if you run that 30% for 10 years it means that LT and HDFC Bank would be US$ 100 billion companies in 10 years and that does seem veryu challenging.
 
It is better to take a 2-3 year view and proceed along.
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 6:16pm
Basant ji
 
did you see the graham's equation:
 
value= ttmeps*(8.5+2* GRowth rate)*4.4/bond yield
 
what is your view on that?


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by basant

I would think that these are different methods t one goal. Now if you run that 30% for 10 years it means that LT and HDFC Bank would be US$ 100 billion companies in 10 years and that does seem veryu challenging.
 
It is better to take a 2-3 year view and proceed along.
 
There is a difference in growth rates. L&T 17% and HDFCBK 30%

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If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by vijayM

Basant ji
 
did you see the graham's equation:
 
value= ttmeps*(8.5+2* GRowth rate)*4.4/bond yield
 
what is your view on that?

Vijay
4.4/Risk Free Rate was added later when Bond rates were changed.
Always remember "Past performance is not an indicator for future."

I learned few things on this and i am following it. Try using Free cash flow.
Set a process for identifying future cash flows and based on that try to calculate intrinsic value of a company.

I will suggest that stop reading books on WB, and read what is written by WB in his letters to shareholders.

While writing about Calculation of Intrinsic value in the Owners manual Buffet says...

Intrinsic value is an all-important concept that offers the only logical approach to evaluating the relative attractiveness of investments and businesses. Intrinsic value can be defined simply: It is the discounted value of the cash that can be taken out of a business during its remaining life.
The calculation of intrinsic value, though, is not so simple. As our definition suggests, intrinsic value is an estimate rather than a precise figure, and it is additionally an estimate that must be changed if interest rates move or forecasts of future cash flows are revised. Two people looking at the same set of facts, moreover — and this would apply even to Charlie and me — will almost inevitably come up with at least slightly different intrinsic value figures. That is one reason we never give you our estimates of intrinsic value. What our annual reports do supply, though, are the facts that we ourselves use to calculate this value.


Read owners manual on http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/

My experience is that i get good figure of any company by this method he has mentioned. and if one follows this method can get good picks at attractive prices. for me rest of the words like Fwd PE, Multiple of X  are greek. I never look at them.


Regards
9StockPortfolio



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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by vijayM

Originally posted by basant

I would think that these are different methods t one goal. Now if you run that 30% for 10 years it means that LT and HDFC Bank would be US$ 100 billion companies in 10 years and that does seem veryu challenging.
 
It is better to take a 2-3 year view and proceed along.
 
There is a difference in growth rates. L&T 17% and HDFCBK 30%

My experience says in current days following assumptions will give you fantastic results.

1) Owners Earnings growth rate of 8.5% for first 7 years, then 3% next 3 years. (Free Cashflow/PAT/ Net profit)
2) Growth in Depreciation 10% every year.
3) Growth in Capital expenditure 10%
4) Discount all the future cash flows with internal rate of return 13%

I use 7 + 3 years time frame. that means My company will grow at 8.5% annually for 7 years. then next 3 years it will grow at 3% after 10th year it will stop growing forever. what will be value at 11th year.

At the end whatever you get a today intrinsic value of a company that will produce so & so cash for next 10 years.

Then I apply 50% margin of safety to that Value and i get my Buy price. On or below that price i buy.

Read Margin of safety by seth klarman. Buffet always writes about Margin of safety in his letters.

All figures in % above are my comfort level figures


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 8:37pm
So according to my calculation i get following values for L&T
1) Discounted cash flow for next 10 years
2) Terminal value of the company at 11th year. after that company will never grow.

Intrinsic value= 1) + 2) / Shares outstanding = Rs. 842

Buy Price= Intrinsic value / 50% margin of safety = Rs. 421

I will wait for L&T to come at or below of 421.. otherwise i will not buy no matter how dynamic & high growth company is and how much big it's expansion plans are.

regards
9StockPortfolio





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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

So according to my calculation i get following values for L&T
1) Discounted cash flow for next 10 years
2) Terminal value of the company at 11th year. after that company will never grow.

Intrinsic value= 1) + 2) / Shares outstanding = Rs. 842

Buy Price= Intrinsic value / 50% margin of safety = Rs. 421

I will wait for L&T to come at or below of 421.. otherwise i will not buy no matter how dynamic & high growth company is and how much big it's expansion plans are.

regards
9StockPortfolio
 



 
Basant ji,
 
I am confused with above analysis. Do you agree with this or do you agree with my analysis of L&T and HDFC bank I have given in this thread?
Please solve this confusion.
 
regards
vijayM


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 6:29am

That is an individual call anyone can fix the margin of safety according to his risk reward profile but broadly your thesis is ok except that we need to tweak it abit for some unpleasent happenings.

LT should fall on Tuesday post the Satyam news so the 'margin of safety' increases.
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 9:24am
Originally posted by vijayM

Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

So according to my calculation i get following values for L&T
1) Discounted cash flow for next 10 years
2) Terminal value of the company at 11th year. after that company will never grow.

Intrinsic value= 1) + 2) / Shares outstanding = Rs. 842

Buy Price= Intrinsic value / 50% margin of safety = Rs. 421

I will wait for L&T to come at or below of 421.. otherwise i will not buy no matter how dynamic & high growth company is and how much big it's expansion plans are.

regards
9StockPortfolio
 



 
Basant ji,
 
I am confused with above analysis. Do you agree with this or do you agree with my analysis of L&T and HDFC bank I have given in this thread?
Please solve this confusion.
 
regards
vijayM


Hi Vijay
You should either follow Graham or Buffet.

Graham's formula you know as you have mentioned. What i have written is Buffet's way of calculating Intrinsic value of a company. He has written about that in his Owner's Manual. I follow buffet's way. because Grahams formula is straight forward which purely looks at EPS and has standard figures.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 9:28am
Always remember: Price follows Value, No matter how high the CMP is..if value is small then price will come to that value. Like HDFC or L&T or Educomp. One day price will come to Value. and buffet waits for that day.. famous example Coca Cola. he waited for 20 years to buy at his price & Value. As per my beliefe High PE is not an indicator of High growth. rather I think the stocks which have high PE are highly overvalued. I follow standard PE<20 :)

Cheers
9StockPortfolio



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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 11:13am
Originally posted by basant

That is an individual call anyone can fix the margin of safety according to his risk reward profile but broadly your thesis is ok except that we need to tweak it abit for some unpleasent happenings.

LT should fall on Tuesday post the Satyam news so the 'margin of safety' increases.
 

Basant sir,
If you look carefully to my valuation method, you will come to know that the rates i have chosen keeping those unpleasant happenings in mind.

L&T has grown at the rate of 30% in the past, why it should grow by that rate in future? I am trying to be as pessimistic as i can. So i assume growth of 8.5% These figures will take care of those unpleasant happenings, if i initially choose them in my calculation. if in case L&T performs more than 30% every year, i would rather a pleasant happening for me Smile

I am destined to fail if i chose 30% growth rate for next 10 years and company fails to achieve that after couple of years. So i should chose minimum possible growth rate in the first place. as i am comfortable with 8.5% for first 7 years, then 3% for next 3 years and from 11th no growth.



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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 11:41am
Originally posted by basant

That is an individual call anyone can fix the margin of safety according to his risk reward profile but broadly your thesis is ok except that we need to tweak it abit for some unpleasent happenings.

LT should fall on Tuesday post the Satyam news so the 'margin of safety' increases.
 
 
Basant ji
 
The point is just not margin of safety.
 
I agree with margin of safety being an individual call but what about growth rate being assumed at 8.5% while LTs 10 avg historic growth rate is 17% (and 5 year avg is 40%). Further, India has huge potential for infra growth. By being too conservative in our analysis, are we not going to miss the bus? The growth rates assumed should be realistic and not optimistic or pessimistic. I give more weightage on past track record though a sense of future is essential. (For ex: infy has 56% growth record but future is not that good) Assuming 8.5% growth rate for LT is not convincing to me.
 
 
regards
vijayM


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 25/Jan/2009 at 11:51am
Originally posted by vijayM

Originally posted by basant

That is an individual call anyone can fix the margin of safety according to his risk reward profile but broadly your thesis is ok except that we need to tweak it abit for some unpleasent happenings.

LT should fall on Tuesday post the Satyam news so the 'margin of safety' increases.
 
 
Basant ji
 
The point is just not margin of safety.
 
I agree with margin of safety being an individual call but what about growth rate being assumed at 8.5% while LTs 10 avg historic growth rate is 17% (and 5 year avg is 40%). Further, India has huge potential for infra growth. By being too conservative in our analysis, are we not going to miss the bus? The growth rates assumed should be realistic and not optimistic or pessimistic. I give more weightage on past track record though a sense of future is essential. (For ex: infy has 56% growth record but future is not that good) Assuming 8.5% growth rate for LT is not convincing to me.
 
 
regards
vijayM

Dear Vijay
You are contradicting what you have written in your signature. You are counting on L&T's good performance, which IS NOT an indicator of good prospects. You should buy L&T at a so good price that even a mediocre business will fetch you your profit.

Again, it's own perspective. i follow my own. and tell you i had calculated Suzlons price at around 70 when last year it was trading at 230..

You shouldn't be thinking of Value investing if you believe this is the last bus to catch. Patience is most important. I am too learning this. I too have made nonsense investments and burned my fingures. but now no more nonsense. If Mr. Market want me to buy from him, he should sell those stocks where i am comfortable in buying. I can wait untill he comes with really good bargains.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 1:24pm
9STOCK JI,
 
what is comfort buying level for HDFC bank? Give details of calculations.
 
vijayM


-------------
If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 3:23pm
1) L&T would find it almost impossible to grow at 30% for the next 10 years.
 
2) Investor should take a 2-3 year view. The world changes in 5 years and 10 years is two generations in the stock market.
 
3) If L& T grows at 8.5%CAGR then one can make more money by shorting L&T over the next 12-24 months then one can by keeping it for the next 120 months. 8.5% is abysmally low and it will do far far better then that.
 
4) AT 8.5% CAGR for India's most efficient Infra companywe can well imagine how our roads, bridges, power stations, ports would be in the next 10 years. There is no need to invest money in stocks in that kind of an assumption. Money is better in abank.
 
5) At the end of the day some stocks appear overvalued for one and undervalued for others and that is why we have a market so instead of trying to get a collective wisdom in the afffirmative an individual should make a personal call.
 
 
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by basant

That is an individual call anyone can fix the margin of safety according to his risk reward profile but broadly your thesis is ok except that we need to tweak it abit for some unpleasent happenings.

LT should fall on Tuesday post the Satyam news so the 'margin of safety' increases.
 

Basant sir,
If you look carefully to my valuation method, you will come to know that the rates i have chosen keeping those unpleasant happenings in mind.

L&T has grown at the rate of 30% in the past, why it should grow by that rate in future? I am trying to be as pessimistic as i can. So i assume growth of 8.5% These figures will take care of those unpleasant happenings, if i initially choose them in my calculation. if in case L&T performs more than 30% every year, i would rather a pleasant happening for me Smile

I am destined to fail if i chose 30% growth rate for next 10 years and company fails to achieve that after couple of years. So i should chose minimum possible growth rate in the first place. as i am comfortable with 8.5% for first 7 years, then 3% for next 3 years and from 11th no growth.



-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by vijayM

9STOCK JI,
 
what is comfort buying level for HDFC bank? Give details of calculations.
 
vijayM

I am afraid that i can't evaluate Banks & Finance companies. I never understood their financial. I can have a look on capital goods or engineering company and understand their books. But when i see a bank with Debt/Equity ratio as high as 8-10-12 times.. I get confused. Usually any bank has Debt/Equity ration in this range. The filter criteria which i use for L&T, Suzlon or Thermax can  not be applied to HDFC, SBI or Rel capital.

Sorry Vijay. I can't comment on HDFC bank. I would think of it once it comes below PE 13-14.. as of now it's approx 20.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 5:32pm
 
Dear 9stock ji,
 
I am not an expert. Broadly, I am extremely bullish on HDFC bank for next 3 years. I expect it to grow at 30% cagr and a PE re-rating to 30 implying a 3-4 bagger in 3 years. Presently I am agressively buying this stock with every fall. Basant ji is an expert in above stock.
 
vijayM
 


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If a business does well, the stock eventually follows:Warren Buffett


Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 6:10pm
It's difficult to do a DCF for each and every company.
Rather, based on some measures we try to figure out whether the stock is cheap or not.
Margin of safety would also depend on our understanding of the business of a company.
For example, if we are more sure about company A than company B, we can have a lower margin of safety for A.
Risk also comes from not knowing enough about a company.Discount rates will vary from person to person.

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"History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett


Posted By: HallaBol
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by kumardiwesh

It's difficult to do a DCF for each and every company.
Rather, based on some measures we try to figure out whether the stock is cheap or not.
Margin of safety would also depend on our understanding of the business of a company.
For example, if we are more sure about company A than company B, we can have a lower margin of safety for A.
Risk also comes from not knowing enough about a company.Discount rates will vary from person to person.


We were more sure about PRIL/TV18 some 2 years back, what happened to them. Being more sure does not increase margin of safety, that is just the mindset comfort.

Since we were wrong about "being more sure" in the past, why it can't happen again ??



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The future is never clear, you pay a very high price in the stock market for a cherry consensus. Uncertainty actually is the friend of the buyer of long-term values. - Warren Buffet


Posted By: HallaBol
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by vijayM


 

Dear 9stock ji,

 

I am not an expert. Broadly, I am extremely bullish on HDFC bank for next 3 years. I expect it to grow at 30% cagr and a PE re-rating to 30 implying a 3-4 bagger in 3 years. Presently I am agressively buying this stock with every fall. Basant ji is an expert in above stock.

 

vijayM

 


Growing at 30% is understandable, but re-rating to 30 p/e that something I could not digest.



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The future is never clear, you pay a very high price in the stock market for a cherry consensus. Uncertainty actually is the friend of the buyer of long-term values. - Warren Buffet


Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 7:06pm
Yeah, we can be wrong.
It's highly subjective.
And since we're less sure now, margin of safety has to increase.
The value of a company may change over a period of two years.   

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"History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 8:07pm

Its amazing to see how much of a dent PRIL has made to the investors who bought it and the ones who did notLOL In fact the protests are more from the latter then the former. Its become social cause to protest against Biyani but that should not matter to me since I made my capital out of that man only.

One of the successful aspects of investing (value or no value) is to exit a stock when the situation gets bad.
 
We all know what happened to Abhimanyu in Mahabharat surprisingly what looks value today can be over valued tomorrow and people who have no exit strategy will find it tough to protect capital at that time.
 
My 2000 losses really taught me that taking a capital loss as large as 50%+ is also a part of the game as making a 35 bagger. In this case I see reason why a trader should be distinguished with an investor a trader takes a loss if prices move against him an investor takes a loss if fundamentals move against him.
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: rapidriser
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by basant

My 2000 losses really taught me that taking a capital loss as large as 50%+ is also a part of the game as making a 35 bagger. In this case I see reason why a trader should be distinguished with an investor a trader takes a loss if prices move against him an investor takes a loss if fundamentals move against him.
 
 
People who claim to be "long term investors" should have this statement pasted on their wall in bold. Too many of us hang on to stocks even when it is clear that the premise on which we invested in a stock no longer holds true. What Basant ji learnt in 2000, I have learnt in 2008, and I've paid heavy tution fees for this lesson.
 


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 26/Jan/2009 at 9:36am
Originally posted by rapidriser

Originally posted by basant

My 2000 losses really taught me that taking a capital loss as large as 50%+ is also a part of the game as making a 35 bagger. In this case I see reason why a trader should be distinguished with an investor a trader takes a loss if prices move against him an investor takes a loss if fundamentals move against him.
 
 
People who claim to be "long term investors" should have this statement pasted on their wall in bold. Too many of us hang on to stocks even when it is clear that the premise on which we invested in a stock no longer holds true. What Basant ji learnt in 2000, I have learnt in 2008, and I've paid heavy tution fees for this lesson.
 

Good said Basant Sir

Even I have also paid heavy tuition fees in 2008. Hence Blowing the Buttermilk... There is no doubt you had a wonderful ride on PRIL. People may label it as trading. But We are here to earn money & capital preservation. How you do it it is part of your game plan.

Point is whether there was really a boom for Retail or it was just a bubble. and how to keep away from such booms & bubbles when it is on its peak.

Vijay is saying HDFC is his favorite. but does HDFC bank know that Vijay M is favoring it? No stock will perform 30% because someone is expecting it to perform. if i invest my life's savings in HDFC because i believe in it and it will perform at 30%, and in reality it fails to give you that return. Am i going to management of HDFC and saying boss i was expecting you to perform and you didn't, give me my money back. Will this make sense.

Then what is left in our hands? Buffet says, Understand the business first. then Company (managment) then buy the company at such a price where mediocre business will fetch you your price.



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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: Bharat B. Sahni
Date Posted: 02/Feb/2009 at 3:42pm
Sir,

I am a newbie,
could you please guide;

1. How to calculate Intrinsic Value  of a Share ?
2. Also please guide how to find the discussion on a Particular Share on the TED Forum ?

Thanking you,

-------------
Bharat


Posted By: Bharat B. Sahni
Date Posted: 03/Feb/2009 at 9:26pm
Sir,

Could you please guide me how to find the discussion on a Particular Share in the TED Forum ?

Thanks,


-------------
Bharat


Posted By: furkanalam
Date Posted: 03/Feb/2009 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Bharat B. Sahni

Sir,Could you please guide me how to find the discussion on a Particular Share in the TED Forum ?Thanks,


Use the Search feature in TED...


Posted By: kanaka_basi
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2009 at 3:01am
Hi all,
 
How do you find the intrinsic value of stocks? using DCF? If yes, what value you use for the discounting rate?
 
I use the G-sec yield rate..... When i did this exercise the G-sec returns were 6.75% ...
Any idea what it is currrently now?
 
And where would the current rates be available?
 
Is using the G-sec yield rate a correct measure? Moreover after doing this exercise, I add in a confidence/ reliability measure to the value and then compare it with the current price.
 
Thanks
Srini
 
PS: Any suggestions about how wrong/ right this method is??


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2009 at 7:28am
Originally posted by kanaka_basi

Hi all,
 
How do you find the intrinsic value of stocks? using DCF? If yes, what value you use for the discounting rate?
 
I use the G-sec yield rate..... When i did this exercise the G-sec returns were 6.75% ...
Any idea what it is currrently now?
 
And where would the current rates be available?
 
Is using the G-sec yield rate a correct measure? Moreover after doing this exercise, I add in a confidence/ reliability measure to the value and then compare it with the current price.
 
Thanks
Srini
 
Hi Srini,
        Discount rate is typically what you think you should earn for taking the risk of owning stocks. Typically many fund managers add a risk premium over the treasury bond rates (treasury rates are thought to be zero risk). Eg: If treasury rates are 5%, some may think that 10% should be the risk adjusted rate. Buffett always goes by the treasury rates because he believes that his picks have zero risk! So, I guess one has to find his own comfortable rate.
 
Kannan
 
PS: Any suggestions about how wrong/ right this method is??


-------------
kannan


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2009 at 8:11am
Originally posted by kanaka_basi

Hi all,
 
How do you find the intrinsic value of stocks? using DCF? If yes, what value you use for the discounting rate?
 
I use the G-sec yield rate..... When i did this exercise the G-sec returns were 6.75% ...
Any idea what it is currrently now?
 
And where would the current rates be available?
 
Is using the G-sec yield rate a correct measure? Moreover after doing this exercise, I add in a confidence/ reliability measure to the value and then compare it with the current price.
 
Thanks
Srini
 
PS: Any suggestions about how wrong/ right this method is??

Discount rate is what your Internal Rate of Return. Lesser the discount rate higher the Intrinsic value.

For Example
My calculation of Thermax with 8.5% growth rate & 12.5% Discount rate for 10 years, that gives me Intrinsic value Rs 320. So i will buy it at 50% margin Rs 160.

But if you assume growth rate 30%, Discount rate of 6.75% then it would give me horrible intrinsic value of Rs 1600, means i should buy it at 800. Since CMP is much lower than 800, i will definitely buy Thermax. Which i think is not correct. I always remain conservative, try to bring down bargain price so that i would get good company at lowest possible value.

Some of my calculation about L&T gives me buy price of 350, Asian paints 285, RIL 400 & so on.. so i will wait for those prices Smile



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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2009 at 8:24am
more you bring down the Intrinsic value, cheaper you get the value.
What do you mean by Risk free return Rate? is 6.75% Risk Free? Don't you count Inflation Risk? have you forgotten Inflation touching 13%?
So according to me whatever above Inflation, is Risk Free. so i won't give a chance to 6.75% (though Inflation numbers today are around 4%)..I always take 12.5% as Risk Free return rate.

And i should not be over optimistic in current market situation.. so I take 8.5% growth rate (bit less than India's economic growth rate of 9%) for any company. No matter how much growth is registered by that company in the past and no matter how much capable is the company to register stronger growth in future.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: kanaka_basi
Date Posted: 20/Feb/2009 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

 
Discount rate is what your Internal Rate of Return. Lesser the discount rate higher the Intrinsic value.

For Example
My calculation of Thermax with 8.5% growth rate & 12.5% Discount rate for 10 years, that gives me Intrinsic value Rs 320. So i will buy it at 50% margin Rs 160.

But if you assume growth rate 30%, Discount rate of 6.75% then it would give me horrible intrinsic value of Rs 1600, means i should buy it at 800. Since CMP is much lower than 800, i will definitely buy Thermax. Which i think is not correct. I always remain conservative, try to bring down bargain price so that i would get good company at lowest possible value.

Some of my calculation about L&T gives me buy price of 350, Asian paints 285, RIL 400 & so on.. so i will wait for those prices Smile

 
I use the DCF for 5 years... the worst case scenario that the company stops growing its EPS in 5 years...
 
The discount rate which i use is the t-bill rate (the least riskiest that i'd lose my capital amount). My understanding of the discount rate is that its my opportunity cost of not investing in T-bill (or RBI Bond)...
 
I use a confidence measure to adjust the fact that it might not be possible for the company to grow at the same growth rate for the next 5 years...
 
Generally i use the confidence measure as 50%.. that the company would be able to meet its growth rates...
 
The max growth rate i use is 20%, definitely not 30% and not for 10 years....
 
 


Posted By: kanaka_basi
Date Posted: 20/Feb/2009 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by kannanravi1

 
Hi Srini,
        Discount rate is typically what you think you should earn for taking the risk of owning stocks. Typically many fund managers add a risk premium over the treasury bond rates (treasury rates are thought to be zero risk). Eg: If treasury rates are 5%, some may think that 10% should be the risk adjusted rate. Buffett always goes by the treasury rates because he believes that his picks have zero risk! So, I guess one has to find his own comfortable rate.
 
Kannan
 
PS: Any suggestions about how wrong/ right this method is??
 
Hi Kannan,
 
I saw this link http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/valuation/buffett_calc.htm - http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/valuation/buffett_calc.htm  which uses the discount rate as an opportunity cost of not investing in the least riskiest of asset classes (treasuries).
 
I thought that the expected confidence percentage (or probability that the earnings growth would be met) and the fact that my opportunity cost would be the treasury rate gave me the worst case scenario in trying to find the intrinsic value of the stock... and also the assumption that the compnay would grow only 5 years into the future...
 
Your opinions??
 
 


Posted By: kanaka_basi
Date Posted: 20/Feb/2009 at 7:13pm
 
By Risk free rate, I meant no risk of default, no chance of my capital being wiped out (a possibility with stocks)... which is ideally (or theoretically) the treasury rate...
 
 
If inflation today is 13% and an investment *promises* you 20% that does not mean the 7% above inflation rate is risk free... it means the entire 20% is risky.. Unless, of course, the investment is in TIPS...if TIPS did exist in India (iam not sure if it does or not) , I'd use that rate as the discount rate...
 
According to this article http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4200 - http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4200  , even TIPS lost the battle against inflation...
 
Looks like Inflation can't be beaten.. live with it...
 


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 22/Feb/2009 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by kanaka_basi

Originally posted by kannanravi1

 
Hi Srini,
        Discount rate is typically what you think you should earn for taking the risk of owning stocks. Typically many fund managers add a risk premium over the treasury bond rates (treasury rates are thought to be zero risk). Eg: If treasury rates are 5%, some may think that 10% should be the risk adjusted rate. Buffett always goes by the treasury rates because he believes that his picks have zero risk! So, I guess one has to find his own comfortable rate.
 
Kannan
 
PS: Any suggestions about how wrong/ right this method is??
 
Hi Kannan,
 
I saw this link http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/valuation/buffett_calc.htm - http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/valuation/buffett_calc.htm  which uses the discount rate as an opportunity cost of not investing in the least riskiest of asset classes (treasuries).
 
I thought that the expected confidence percentage (or probability that the earnings growth would be met) and the fact that my opportunity cost would be the treasury rate gave me the worst case scenario in trying to find the intrinsic value of the stock... and also the assumption that the compnay would grow only 5 years into the future...
 
Your opinions??
 
 
Hi,
    I too use the very same link for my DCF calcs!! Good to see I am not alone! I typically use a confidence margin ranging from 50% to 75% (for companies with extremely strong moat I use 75%). I use the opportunity cost as the treasury rate (I don't track the rates religiously but use 6 to 8%). I also predict growth only for 5 years and love to get stocks with no growth priced in. Even if I assume growth I try to keep at or below the GDP growth rates. Don't know if this gives me worst case scenarios but hopefully I am being conservative enough so that I have cushions for any mistakes in my valuation. Also personally I think that the best way to be conservative and risk-free is through buying companies with significant moats. This is a qualitative factor though unfortunately. Buffett once stated that he uses risk-free treasury rates because he believes that the companies he buys in are as stable and risk free as a treasury bill!!


-------------
kannan


Posted By: kanaka_basi
Date Posted: 22/Feb/2009 at 12:38pm
 
I hope we are not wrong Smile
 
I think people look at ROCE and decide if the moat is sustainable etc, so that does mean it is quantifiable, right? Although assessing the quality of management etc makes it a lot subjective
 
 
<kannan>
I also predict growth only for 5 years and love to get stocks with no growth priced in.
</kannan>
 
What did you mean by that?
 
<kannan>
Buffett once stated that he uses risk-free treasury rates because he believes that the companies he buys in are as stable and risk free as a treasury bill!!
</kannan>
 
Oh, was that the reason of using the discounting rate as a T-bill rate? If yes, then i think I have totally misunderstood him.
 
My logic of using that T-bill rate was as an opportunity cost - of not investing in non-risky (no capital loss) T-bill ...
 


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 24/Feb/2009 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by kanaka_basi

 
I hope we are not wrong Smile
 
I think people look at ROCE and decide if the moat is sustainable etc, so that does mean it is quantifiable, right? Although assessing the quality of management etc makes it a lot subjective
 
 
<kannan>
I also predict growth only for 5 years and love to get stocks with no growth priced in.
</kannan>
 
What did you mean by that?
 
<kannan>
Buffett once stated that he uses risk-free treasury rates because he believes that the companies he buys in are as stable and risk free as a treasury bill!!
</kannan>
 
Oh, was that the reason of using the discounting rate as a T-bill rate? If yes, then i think I have totally misunderstood him.
 
My logic of using that T-bill rate was as an opportunity cost - of not investing in non-risky (no capital loss) T-bill ...
 

Nobody is wrong in the market. No two people will quote exact same intrinsic value. My experience of having 10 year DCF model (first 7 years with 10% growth, rest 3 with 5%, and 0% thereafter) with 12.5% discount rate has helped me to fetch good companies at cheap rates. I have not repented for buying at high.

I believe we all are following our own investment model & plan.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 05/Mar/2009 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by vijayM

9STOCK JI,
 
what is comfort buying level for HDFC bank? Give details of calculations.
 
vijayM


Vijay M

Hope you are accumulating HDFC Bank's shares. Also you might be interested in L&T around 450.

Do you think Price is following the value? or effect of overall slowdown?


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 05/Mar/2009 at 2:29pm
This is from the Man's latest newsletter:

INTRINSIC VALUE

Now let’s focus on a term that I mentioned earlier and that you will encounter in future annual reports.

Intrinsic value is an all-important concept that offers the only logical approach to evaluating the relative attractiveness of investments and businesses. Intrinsic value can be defined simply: It is the discounted value of the cash that can be taken out of a business during its remaining life. The calculation of intrinsic value, though, is not so simple. As our definition suggests, intrinsic value is an estimate rather than a precise figure, and it is additionally an estimate that must be changed if interest rates move or forecasts of future cash flows are revised. Two people looking at the same set of facts, moreover—and this would apply even to Charlie and me—will almost inevitably come up with at least slightly different intrinsic value figures. That is one reason we never give you our estimates of intrinsic value.

What our annual reports do supply, though, are the facts that we ourselves use to calculate this value. Meanwhile, we regularly report our per-share book value, an easily calculable number, though one of limited use. The limitations do not arise from our holdings of marketable securities, which are carried on our books at their current prices. Rather the inadequacies of book value have to do with the companies we control, whose values as stated on our books may be far different from their intrinsic values.

The disparity can go in either direction. For example, in 1964 we could state with certitude that Berkshire’s per-share book value was $19.46. However, that figure considerably overstated the company’s intrinsic value, since all of the company’s resources were tied up in a sub-profitable textile business. Our textile assets had neither going-concern nor liquidation values equal to their carrying values. Today, however, Berkshire’s situation is reversed: Now, our book value far understates Berkshire’s intrinsic value, a point true because many of the businesses we control are worth much more than their carrying value.

Inadequate though they are in telling the story, we give you Berkshire’s book-value figures because they today serve as a rough, albeit significantly understated, tracking measure for Berkshire’s intrinsic value. In other words, the percentage change in book value in any given year is likely to be reasonably close to that year’s change in intrinsic value.

You can gain some insight into the differences between book value and intrinsic value by looking at one form of investment, a college education. Think of the education’s cost as its “book value.” If this cost is to be accurate, it should include the earnings that were foregone by the student because he chose college rather than a job.

For this exercise, we will ignore the important non-economic benefits of an education and focus strictly on its economic value. First, we must estimate the earnings that the graduate will receive over his lifetime and subtract from that figure an estimate of what he would have earned had he lacked his education. That gives us an excess earnings figure, which must then be discounted, at an appropriate interest rate, back to graduation day. The dollar result equals the intrinsic economic value of the education. Some graduates will find that the book value of their education exceeds its intrinsic value, which means that whoever paid for the education didn’t get his money’s worth. In other cases, the intrinsic value of an education will far exceed its book value, a result that proves capital was wisely deployed. In all cases, what is clear is that book value is meaningless as an indicator of intrinsic value.




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Posted By: Kishor
Date Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 12:28pm
Hi All
 
I understand that the Intrinsic value of a stock is tied to the Cash Flow of the company.
 
But How you all calulate the future cash flow?I think it is operating CF that will be considered.Is it a good idea to take the operating CF from the Annual reports as a starting point.
 
If this is ok how to project it to future?It is easy to project the Future sales but i feel it is bit tricky to project Cost and arrive at Operating Cash flow.
 
Am I missing something or is there a better way to calculate the Cash Flow?
 
regards
Kishor


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 4:30pm
Addif WC has increased deduct it and vice versa .add back non cash exp like dep and make adjustments for changes in WC and then deduct the increase in fixed assets.
 
What you will be left with is free cash flow.
   


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Kishor

Hi All
 
I understand that the Intrinsic value of a stock is tied to the Cash Flow of the company.
 
But How you all calulate the future cash flow?I think it is operating CF that will be considered.Is it a good idea to take the operating CF from the Annual reports as a starting point.
 
If this is ok how to project it to future?It is easy to project the Future sales but i feel it is bit tricky to project Cost and arrive at Operating Cash flow.
 
Am I missing something or is there a better way to calculate the Cash Flow?
 
regards
Kishor

Kishore
Read the last para above.

Buffet talks about earnings. Not operating CF. How much profit or earning you can take out of the business for a given period is what estimating earnings. You should be pessimistic about fixing the earning growth rate. I take 8.5 to 10%. You should be optimistic about discounting future earnings. I want 12% to 14% returns so my Discount rate would be 12%.

So finally i would project that lets say Thermax would increase it's earnings 8.5% every year and I will discount that by 12% back to todays price. This overall brings intrinsic value very low compared to the CMP. if you decide to buy at what you have calculated. then you will get wonderfull business & cheap prices.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 10:55am
Originally posted by basant

Addif WC has increased deduct it and vice versa .add back non cash exp like dep and make adjustments for changes in WC and then deduct the increase in fixed assets.
 
What you will be left with is free cash flow.
   

Or this can be

FCF = Net profit + Depriciation - Capital Expenditure. You may call it as Owners Earnings as well.




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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 11:38am

You need to adjust for WC changes as well because that is cash invested or thrown out from business.



-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Kishor
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 1:06pm
Hi Basant
 
Nice to see your reply.
 
Future Cash earnings to an extent can be estimated using the expected growth rates.
 
But i feel it is extremely difficult to forsee the future WC changes and Capital exp company is going to incurr.
 
Hi 9stock portfolio
 
If i am not wrong the discount rate should be the cost of capital.
 
regards
Kishor


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 1:22pm

Absolutely true., What we do is take a percentage of current year sales on WC and assume it to remain same.

But there are a lot opf assumptions in cash flow analyusis that is why I like to focus on RoCE!
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Kishor

Hi Basant
 
Nice to see your reply.
 
Future Cash earnings to an extent can be estimated using the expected growth rates.
 
But i feel it is extremely difficult to forsee the future WC changes and Capital exp company is going to incurr.
 
Hi 9stock portfolio
 
If i am not wrong the discount rate should be the cost of capital.
 
regards
Kishor


I am not sure how do you interpret  Cost of Capital.

My definition of Discount rate is, the rate at which you see your today's money after some period. That is Internal Rate of Return.

Suppose i want to have Rs.10000 in my FD account in 12 months then at 10% Discount rate i should have Rs.909  in my FD account today. this simply means that Rs. 10000's today's value is Rs. 909.

So if I assume that my company will earn Cash at the rate of 8.5% every year, then i will discount all those cash flows with 12%. This simply means that whatever i am putting today in the company should grow by 12% IRR (Internal Rate of return)

Wiki says about Discount rate: This is what you might be looking for..
"The cost of capital is often used as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_rate - discount rate , the rate at which projected cash flow will be discounted to give a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_value - present value or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_present_value - net present value ."

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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 2:23pm
Buffet says "Appropriate Discount rate". what is Appropriate depends upon individual. Bigger the Discount rate, lower the Intrinsic value, lower the buy price. So it's very important to select appropriate discount rate.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 2:30pm

Take Cost of capital as 11%(Risk free rate + Premium). Now this is debatable because finding the beta for every stock is not easy so tale a 11% or thereabout number!



-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by basant

Take Cost of capital as 11%(Risk free rate + Premium). Now this is debatable because finding the beta for every stock is not easy so tale a 11% or thereabout number!


That's right Basant ji. Your argument seems perfect.

unfortunately i do not understand Risk free rates & premiums, so i take Highest Inflation number as IRR. My returns should not be eaten by Inflation. So I consider 12% better than anything else.


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Pursuit of Value


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 3:16pm
Yes, 12% is good as it gives some margin but the problem in cash flow is not in the COC but in estimating the actual cash flow in Year X!
 
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 7:49pm
Hi Kishore,
        Here's my personal opinion on Intrinsic value calc. As Basantji rightly said, it is future FCF discounted to present. I agree that it is typically difficult to project cap ex into the future. But this is quite possible when one knows a company intimately enough. I don't have that much knowledge about any individual company yet, bt feel that I have a reasonable handle on projecting capex for some of oldest holdings. For new investments I typically just use the ROE % to project future earnings. ROE typically acts as a conservative figure for companies that have low or zero debt at present. If they want to grow faster than ROE then they can pile on debt. So, to start with I pick companies with low or zero debt and then project using ROE for my new investments. Since there is possibility of higher error in these simple projections, I apply atleast a 30% margin of error to my intrinsic value calcs. Though I calculate growth based on ROE, I also calculate an intrinsic value assuming zero growth. I then try to wait for companies to reach this zero growth number. It is usually not easy to get companies at zero growth number, but crashes like the one we just experienced typically get these companies close to that number. I must confess though that sometimes I get tempted or tired of the wait and jump in when the prices reach the ROE based intrinsic value:)

For rate of return I usually take 8-10% depending on the interest rate scenario. I have gone up to 12% when bank FDs where giving around 12% about a year back. My theory is to get a return that is atleast equal to FD return. Since I typically wait for the 'almost zero growth' intrinsic value situation till I invest, I have consistently and easily bet FD return rates by a good margin. But still I like to be very very conservative in my new investments. Plus, I must add that I usually invest in good dividend yiled stocks, and dividends add more cream to my 'returns' cake:).

Hope this helps.




-------------
kannan


Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 8:02pm

While RJ also talks about value, ROE etc...i wonder if he took these into considerations while buying Crisil, Titan, Pantaloon when he did. Those seem more like macro calls.



Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 8:07pm
Hi Subu,
    Good point. My gut feel too is that they are macro calls. But I guess RJ has had a history of success on macro calls. He apparently also has friends 'at the right places' (read inside) to give him a better feel for company, sector etc. Does anyone know at what average P/Es did RJ acquire CRISIL, Titan etc at?


-------------
kannan


Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 8:12pm
It's true RJ's style is hard to practise. And also the idea of investing in a bunch of different stocks with probabilities of hits.
 
Sorry, if i diverted the discussion on this thread. I'll try to find the data and post it on the RJ thread.


Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 8:16pm
well i recall reading one old RJ interview.......where he mentioned that he invested in mcdowell just on MCAP basis.......his reasoning was Mcdowell was available around 400cr marketcap with around 40% of beer market in india.......so he bought it........i recall he also said about management quality that he didn't put much thought about it.....his mantra was invest first investigate later.

his interview in outlook profit he was talking about JET AIRWAYS in the same way.......that JET is available at such a small market cap

RJ made money in pantaloon which has negative cash flow.

and i also read somewhere about prof mankekar.........and his great theory about valueing company on free cash flow........and the dude made his money in pantaloon..........
and buffett in CNBC interview talked about why he bought in sep - 08 was that the spread for the bank was so large that they were historical high level. banks were borrowing money at almost zero %

well but this guys are biggies...........

to me most of this stuff goes over my head.

i belive best investment are where u don't think too much.......i had that kindda of thought in 2002.....about bhel........that india needs more power......bhel is good company........that's all.
And u don't get into too much variables and that kindda of exotic stuff.

edit : and u also need frigging bull run we just had.... it will take care of all the miscalculation on anyones part. just buy stock cheap.


Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by kannanravi1

Hi Subu,    Good point. My gut feel too is that they are macro calls. But I guess RJ has had a history of success on macro calls. He apparently also has friends 'at the right places' (read inside) to give him a better feel for company, sector etc. Does anyone know at what average P/Es did RJ acquire CRISIL, Titan etc at?



how does insider help when RJ is holding CRISIL for longer then decade.........same with karur vyasa bank?

with roller coster ride in crisil stock price


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 12:19pm
Hi Chimak sir,
     You are right. CRISIL and Karur are truely long term holdings and I love both these picks. Infact I own CRISIL and wanted to accumulate Karur but didnt ahve funds. I was just making a statement from some articles I had read long back where the comment was RJ used to be a solid trader at one point and had a lot of insider info. Some of his marginal picks could still be trading calls. Thats all I meant. Have nothing against RJ personally. Infact, I think the guy is a pretty decent fellow. Decent enough that I would marry my daughter off to his son in a heart beat :)...(hypothetical really - neither do I have a daughter nor he a son....just going by what Buffett said once about a CEO that he liked)..:)


-------------
kannan


Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 12:28pm
He He....nice one.
 
 
I also heard these rumours about RJ knowing about S&P acquisition from some investors. Seemed like envy to me.
 
Kannanravi, if it's ok would you be able to share your value of Crisil?


Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 12:38pm
plz don't call me sir yarr......i am just a mungerilal.

I just went on a mindless rant...........



Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 12:40pm
No, you made a good point. I think these greats develop a knack for value.
 
Not the exact value but Hey this seems cheap sort of sense.
 
For e.g. Warren Buffett never does any calculation but is aware of values.


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 2:26am
Originally posted by chimak10

plz don't call me sir yarr......i am just a mungerilal.

I just went on a mindless rant...........


Ok mungerilal sir then :)....but you did bring a great point. I am sure RJ has seen something i these picks


-------------
kannan


Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 29/Apr/2009 at 2:25pm
From RD's chat

pulkit7667: sir can u share ....on what parameters do u decide whether a particular stock is worth investing or not

Ramesh Damani: one imp criteria is mcap to my perceived value of the business....the greater the discrepancy the more the value


What the frigg........


Posted By: Kishor
Date Posted: 29/Apr/2009 at 6:31pm
Hi Kannan
 
Your first para is too much for me to understand .Smile
 
The more riskier the cash flow(Chance of Actual CF lower than Expected CF) the higher should be the Discount rate.
 
Same applies if the company is in a riskier enviorment.Eg Aviation-High Risk
 
FMCG -Low risk so lower discount rate will do.
 
This is what i understand.
 
 
regards
Kishor


Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 29/Apr/2009 at 1:51am
Hi Kishore,
     Sorry if my explanation was hard to follow. I probably didnt make it clear enough. In the first para I was referring to how I typically project future cash flows. Since it is hard to project cap ex, I use ROE number to project cash flows. Eg: if ROE on an average is 20%, that means the company is able to invest its initial capital + all its accrued earnings + any proceeds from rights issues etc and get a 20% return on it. Hence if this year say the company has 100 cr as networth (sum of all the above), then we can assume that it would invest this and reap a 20% return. Hence cash flow would be 20 crores. Next year the company would invest 120 crores (if they pay no dividend this year) and get a 24 cr cash flow. So on we can project to future. Note that ROE can be used as a measure only when the company has zero or negligible debt. For companies with debt use ROCE, which will help you include returns from any debt that is being invested by the company. Since this is a very simplistic calc, I take a sufficient margin of safety. Also I try to be very conservative though on the growth rates that I project. Even if the ROE of a company is 20%, I rarely project 20%. I project as low as possible, often zero, sometimes even negative if I feel there may be short term challenges for the company.

     I agree with your idea that different industries could have different discount rates. For me, it just clouds my mind when I take different discount artes. I just try to keep things simple enough so that I can quickly calculate values in my mind. That is just my personal preference. Plus, I try to avoid risky sectors totally. I like to think that all my investments are as safe as FDs - foolish maybe...only time will tell:) . Hence I just use the going FD rates as my discount rate and hope to try and beat that. Talk about low expectations:)

Hope this is clear. If not, we can discuss more.


-------------
kannan


Posted By: stocks2pick
Date Posted: 19/Jul/2009 at 11:44am

Hi Teddies,

I really liked this THREAD that tries explains the IV concept so well.I thank ALL the contributors for their ideas to this THREAD that serves as a great place to learn for newbies.
Though I have got a good hold of the underlying concept of Intrinsic value through this THREAD but I am still confused a little when it comes to actual calculation OF the intrinsic value.I would request the teddis to pen down a step BY step method to calculate the intinsic value OF 2 companies :EXIDE AND MERCATOR as an example.
I know this request is little demanding as this THREAD IS very comprehensive and I myself have gone through each AND every post twice.I hope you will understand my point.

Thanks a ton.



Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by stocks2pick

Hi Teddies,

I really liked this THREAD that tries explains the IV concept so well.I thank ALL the contributors for their ideas to this THREAD that serves as a great place to learn for newbies.
Though I have got a good hold of the underlying concept of Intrinsic value through this THREAD but I am still confused a little when it comes to actual calculation OF the intrinsic value.I would request the teddis to pen down a step BY step method to calculate the intinsic value OF 2 companies :EXIDE AND MERCATOR as an example.
I know this request is little demanding as this THREAD IS very comprehensive and I myself have gone through each AND every post twice.I hope you will understand my point.

Thanks a ton.


I have developed my calculation method for intrinsic value calculation.
For Mercator i will give you my reasoning

My assumptions
1) Annual growth rate (Free cash Flow / Owners Earnings): 8.5%
2) 10 Year cash flow calculation period.
3) Discount Rate 12.5% (Internal Rate of return)
4) CAPEX growth 10% annually.
5) Depreciation Growth 10% annually


Facts
NPAT 181.12 Crs.
Dep= 143.65 Cr.
CAPEX = 121 Cr

MLL's Free cash flow = NPAT + Depreciation- CAPEX = 203 Cr

assuming 85% grwoth over 203 cr for next 10 years, i will get terminal
value of MLL 1494 Cr. plus total Discounted Future cashflows 1538 Cr.
divided by Outstanding Number of shares 23.6 crores.

I will get Intrinsic value of Rs. 128.5.. that means Keeping 50% margin of Safety, I should buy MLL at Rs. 64 or below.

I have developed this calculation Based on inputs from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_cash_flow
http://valueinvestorindia.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-is-intrinsic-value.html
http://www.fwallstreet.com/blog/25.htm


 


-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 2:36pm
Thanks for the detailed valuation calculation.
 
I have one question:
Wouldn't you want to plug in the debt incurred by the company somewhere?


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by subu76

Thanks for the detailed valuation calculation.
 
I have one question:
Wouldn't you want to plug in the debt incurred by the company somewhere?

For that matter i consider debt free companies...

and ultimately everybody is concerned with the cash that business generates right? that's why I take PAT, after paying all interests & all. It's my very basic & simple calculation model. and that has worked for me. I do not go into details like why capex why not increase decrease in wcap?..

Always remember no two people will derive the same Intrinsic value.




-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 3:15pm
Absolutely....that sounds fair enough.


Posted By: stocks2pick
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by stocks2pick

Hi Teddies,

I really liked this THREAD that tries explains the IV concept so well.I thank ALL the contributors for their ideas to this THREAD that serves as a great place to learn for newbies.
Though I have got a good hold of the underlying concept of Intrinsic value through this THREAD but I am still confused a little when it comes to actual calculation OF the intrinsic value.I would request the teddis to pen down a step BY step method to calculate the intinsic value OF 2 companies :EXIDE AND MERCATOR as an example.
I know this request is little demanding as this THREAD IS very comprehensive and I myself have gone through each AND every post twice.I hope you will understand my point.

Thanks a ton.


I have developed my calculation method for intrinsic value calculation.
For Mercator i will give you my reasoning

My assumptions
1) Annual growth rate (Free cash Flow / Owners Earnings): 8.5%
2) 10 Year cash flow calculation period.
3) Discount Rate 12.5% (Internal Rate of return)
4) CAPEX growth 10% annually.
5) Depreciation Growth 10% annually


Facts
NPAT 181.12 Crs.
Dep= 143.65 Cr.
CAPEX = 121 Cr

MLL's Free cash flow = NPAT + Depreciation- CAPEX = 203 Cr

assuming 85% grwoth over 203 cr for next 10 years, i will get terminal
value of MLL 1494 Cr. plus total Discounted Future cashflows 1538 Cr.
divided by Outstanding Number of shares 23.6 crores.

I will get Intrinsic value of Rs. 128.5.. that means Keeping 50% margin of Safety, I should buy MLL at Rs. 64 or below.

I have developed this calculation Based on inputs from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_cash_flow
http://valueinvestorindia.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-is-intrinsic-value.html
http://www.fwallstreet.com/blog/25.htm


 
 
Hi 9StockPortfolio,
 
Thanks a lot for the prompt reply and the detailed calculation.I need to know few more things:
 
How did you get :
 
CAPEX = 121 Cr
Terminal value of MLL = 1494 Cr.
Discounted Future cashflows  = 1538 Cr.
 
I know it might be simple calculation but I just dont want to go wrong.
 
Thanks.
 


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 20/Jul/2009 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by stocks2pick

Hi 9StockPortfolio,
 
Thanks a lot for the prompt reply and the detailed calculation.I need to know few more things:
 
How did you get :
 
CAPEX = 121 Cr
Terminal value of MLL = 1494 Cr.
Discounted Future cashflows  = 1538 Cr.
 
I know it might be simple calculation but I just dont want to go wrong.
 
Thanks.
 


For that purpose I have given 3 excellent sites.
Please go through them, they have even given excel sheets with more details. Fwallstreet & Rohit Chauhan's blogs are excellent sources of valuable information.



-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 1:21pm
My query may appear a bit silly to you experts.
How did you actually get the amount of 1538 crore as teh discounted future cash flow.


Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 1:23pm
The query has already been asked. Just repeting


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by barla

My query may appear a bit silly to you experts.
How did you actually get the amount of 1538 crore as teh discounted future cash flow.

for 2009 Owners earnings are 203.77Cr.
first 7 years it will grow by 8.5% then it will grow by 3%, and growth will stop 11 yr onwards
I am discounting Future cash flows with 12.5%

Whole calculation looks like following..

Year   2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019
Cash Flow A 203.77 218.56 234.36 251.25 269.28 288.54 309.09 331.00 336.74 341.98 346.62
Discount Factor B 1.00 1.13 1.27 1.42 1.60 1.80 2.03 2.28 2.57 2.89 3.25
DCF C= A/B 203.77 194.27 185.18 176.46 168.11 160.12 152.46 145.13 131.24 118.47 106.74
Total Cash Flow Sum C 1538.20                    




-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 3:01pm
Thanks a lot.


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 7:28pm
8.5 p.c can turn out to be very optimistic......

-------------
Jai Guru!!!


Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 22/Jul/2009 at 11:55am
Yes 8.5% can turn out to be optimistic. Thats why a 50% margin of safety means that even at less you will really not loose much.
 
 


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 23/Jul/2009 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

8.5 p.c can turn out to be very optimistic......

Basically i take it same as National growth numbers (GDP?)




-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 23/Jul/2009 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

8.5 p.c can turn out to be very optimistic......

Basically i take it same as National growth numbers (GDP?)


 
Shipping has nothing to do with domestic growth. It depends upon global trade.


-------------
Jai Guru!!!


Posted By: 9StockPortfolio
Date Posted: 23/Jul/2009 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

8.5 p.c can turn out to be very optimistic......

Basically i take it same as National growth numbers (GDP?)


 
Shipping has nothing to do with domestic growth. It depends upon global trade.

Tongue I am not that much knowledgeable. But what i assume is every industry in this country contributes in the growth of the nation. So it is part of various factors that are used to calculate GDP. When we say India growth for 2009 is 7.5% then i assume every industry, establishment, services will grow by more or less than 7.5%.. whatever the sector is.

I may be wrong but still it helps me to keep my buying price low. and if particular sector grows more than 7.5 then it's bonus for me..




-------------
Pursuit of Value


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 23/Jul/2009 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio

Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

8.5 p.c can turn out to be very optimistic......

Basically i take it same as National growth numbers (GDP?)


 
Shipping has nothing to do with domestic growth. It depends upon global trade.

Tongue I am not that much knowledgeable. But what i assume is every industry in this country contributes in the growth of the nation. So it is part of various factors that are used to calculate GDP. When we say India growth for 2009 is 7.5% then i assume every industry, establishment, services will grow by more or less than 7.5%.. whatever the sector is.

I may be wrong but still it helps me to keep my buying price low. and if particular sector grows more than 7.5 then it's bonus for me..


 
Like with any other statistical measure, an 'average' hides more than its reveals.
 
For the next 3 quarters, and at least for the next couple of quarters, shipping companies' results are likely to be horror shows.
 
Companies and the biased analysts may continue to argue that ships are on charter, but you dont need to be a rocket scientist to make out that the 'renewals' rates will be pretty ordinary compared to what they have used to last couple of years ago. I maintain a very negative stance on shipping.


-------------
Jai Guru!!!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 03/Sep/2009 at 5:27pm
I was reading this thread again and thought about pointing out some observations

a) If growth drops in year 7 shouldn't the capex also drop?

b) What about increases in WC? For some companies they are more then growth shouldn't people just take the current WC to sales Ratio and increase that by the rate in growth. Certain MNCs like Nestle work on negative WC and that is a big boast to the growth.

c) If Capex growth equals revenue growth then assets might not get replenished. My sense is capex growth should be slightly more then revenue growth to take care of wear and tear. Of course in some places the assets need not grow as much as revenue but over a long  period of time asset growth should be slightly more then revenue growth.

d) Check out Ashwath Damodaran's website.





Originally posted by 9StockPortfolio


I have developed my calculation method for intrinsic value calculation.
For Mercator i will give you my reasoning

My assumptions
1) Annual growth rate (Free cash Flow / Owners Earnings): 8.5%
2) 10 Year cash flow calculation period.
3) Discount Rate 12.5% (Internal Rate of return)
4) CAPEX growth 10% annually.
5) Depreciation Growth 10% annually


Facts
NPAT 181.12 Crs.
Dep= 143.65 Cr.
CAPEX = 121 Cr

MLL's Free cash flow = NPAT + Depreciation- CAPEX = 203 Cr

assuming 85% grwoth over 203 cr for next 10 years, i will get terminal
value of MLL 1494 Cr. plus total Discounted Future cashflows 1538 Cr.
divided by Outstanding Number of shares 23.6 crores.


 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



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