Tata Investments: You cannot lose money here
Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Investment Ideas - Creating winning portfolios!
Forum Name: Value buys - The intrinsic value is close to market price
Forum Discription: Companies that sit on a large amount of cash or investments or land bank plays or having high dividend yield can be categorised under this segment. These companies have lower downside risks
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128
Printed Date: 25/Apr/2024 at 9:55am
Topic: Tata Investments: You cannot lose money here
Posted By: basant
Subject: Tata Investments: You cannot lose money here
Date Posted: 08/Aug/2006 at 11:55pm
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Tata Investments: You cannot lose money here Tata investment Corporation Ltd (CMP 337) is a Tata group Investment Company with interests in Tata Mutual fund through its 49.9% holding in Tata Securities Pvt. Ltd. As an investment company Tata Investment holds a blue chip portfolio of stocks. More then one third of the company’s investment portfolio is in Tata group companies like Tata Steel, Tata Motors, TCS, Tata Tea, Trent etc. During the Fy 06 the market value of these quoted investments increased by 70% to Rs.2133 crores from Rs.1268 crores in the previous year, Against a market price of Rs 337 the market value of investments that this company holds currently works out to approximately Rs 590 per share This means that an investor is getting these investments for Rs 337 plus the stake in the mutual fund business for FREE. I am taking a 8% lower figure of Rs 590 per share for the market value of investments since the company declared a net asset value figure of Rs 645 per share as on March 31, 2006 and the markets have moved down from that date. The total number of companies in the portfolio was 231 on 31st March, 2006 as against 237 at the end of the previous year. Apart from this the company has no basic operating business and is a quasi mutual fund. Tata Investment derives a significant portion of its income from capital gains on sale of long term investments which are largely dependent on the conditions of the stock market.
· Market value of investments of Rs 590 per shareavailable for Rs 337 per share. · Debt free company with an attractive dividend yield at 3.56%. Please note that Tata Investment will always have a dividend yield of at least 75% more then the market dividend yield since the market price is lower to the market value of investments.. · A low dividend yield captures the downside risk of the stock Also there is no need to sell investments to pay off dividend since the dividend that it receives can be distributed directly to the shareholders. · The Management has a very passive investment style and the portfolio turnover is less then 20% · This year the company moved a significant part of its investments into bonds and money market instruments. Thus the company could use any downside in the stock markets to increase investments Concerns: Since the margin of safety is huge 43% there are no immediate concerns as such but being an Investment company with a significant portion of the investment in group companies the market would not give the stock a higher PE.
From the current year’s budget long term capital gains will now be liable to tax at the rate applicable under MAT (Minimum Alternative Tax). Thus, the Company's tax liability would increase from the current financial year onwards
Recommendation: Tata Investment is an excellent play for the risk averse investor who wishes to participate into the equity markets with minimum downside risk and stable dividend flow. At current price the stock can be bought for long term gains ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Replies:
Posted By: reema
Date Posted: 09/Aug/2006 at 5:51pm
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Mr Basant, If you have the list of stocks that Tata investment holds can you give it so we will be able to see holdings of Tata Investment. ------------- You should try to add wealth not multiply it |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Aug/2006 at 6:08pm
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Sorry, I do not have the details currently, but the management says that it is very much like the BSE 200. In fact thay want their portfolio to be evaluated on the basis of the BSE 200 rather then the Sensex. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Aug/2006 at 10:55am
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Tata investments has moved closer to Rs 400 from the earlier recommended price of Rs 337. At this point http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133 - Morgan Stanley Growth fund makes better sense because of its discount to NAV then Tata Investments. Morgan trades at a market price of Rs38.05against a NAV of Rs44.63 as on yesterday.
Investors buying Morgan Stanley get a head start of about 17% on the market. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 29/Sep/2006 at 3:29pm
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There has been a block deal for over 15 lac shares in this co. today. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 29/Sep/2006 at 3:53pm
| Yes, and CNBC said that the block deal was probably due the tata sons groups recent strategy of increasing their holdings in their group companies. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 29/Sep/2006 at 3:57pm
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Tata Investment is very valuable it holds a lot of other Tata companies! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2006 at 7:40pm
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Mr Basant, Tata Investment holds shares of Tata Sons . Do you have any idea on the value of each Tata Sons share? It is the unlisted Daddy of the Tata Group.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2006 at 11:10pm
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Hi, No I have no idea but that could be very dear. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: SORUB
Date Posted: 28/Jan/2007 at 6:27pm
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hi all,
please give your comments on tata investment corp and apollo hospitals... |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 28/Jan/2007 at 8:18am
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Apollo Management has done nothing to generate interest Tata Investment is solid but do not any overnight magic on this one. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: SORUB
Date Posted: 29/Jan/2007 at 8:35pm
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hi basant
thanks for your quick and valuable answer...i am big fan of buffet and lynch...as per them tata investment corp is a understandable business..i am looking for 5-7 stocks to which i can keep investing in more of a SIP method...is this a good strategy? |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 29/Jan/2007 at 8:52pm
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Tata Investment has a huge margin of safety - dividend yield will always be greater then the market - would be a good strategy to buy in bits but returns would not be super normal! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: kaushalchawla
Date Posted: 13/Jun/2007 at 7:41am
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Looks like the Tata group has denied the news of the proposal to consolidate its financial services businesses under one company.
If this consolidation happens, Basantji where do you see Tata investment few years down the line? ------------- Warm Regards, Kaushal |
Posted By: kaushalchawla
Date Posted: 13/Jun/2007 at 7:41am
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In case of consolidation happens with growing buisnesses coming under one company, do you see it outperforming relicance capital? ------------- Warm Regards, Kaushal |
Posted By: nav_1996
Date Posted: 13/Jun/2007 at 8:21am
| I guess Tata Motor Finance may be the place where they would like to start |
Posted By: dhanabbal_g
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 3:22pm
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Tata sons open offer to buy 29.29% @ 600/sh.
cmp 450 rs. link http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Corporate_Trends/Tatas_to_hike_stake_in_investment_firm_with_Rs_600-cr_offer/articleshow/2370681.cms - here
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 3:30pm
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Yes, saw that. Patience pays is how the value guys will react to this. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: SORUB
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 5:37pm
yup,i have been slowly investing in this gem for few months  ------------- K.I.S.S(keep it simple silly) is the most easy management formula i ever came across!!! but it is very hard to follow!!! |
Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 10:40am
| This is the only stock we both agreed basant sir..... |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 11:25am
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For a change we did ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 16/Sep/2007 at 11:27am
| hahaha.....but it was a delight when we discussed it. It pays a co-holding company to merge another co-holding co. if thats trading at a steep discount to its NAV. It was always on the anvil and Tata Sons has taken the step in the right direction. |
Posted By: vinoodpk
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2007 at 5:16pm
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Basantji / Vivekji i have a quick question? I went thru the P&L and Balance Sheet of this company. If I go by the networth of investment per share as of FY year ending March 07 it comes to Rs 640 per share. But when I look a the P&L of this company for the past 5 years (when the mkts were going up) the EPS has not shown much of a growth and neither has the Asset under management shown exponential growth. Can you help me understand this company and its business better. And also if you can help me understand the financials of this company then it would be sone pe suhaga ( i am an absolute newbie to this field ). Many Thanks Vinod |
Posted By: dhanabbal_g
Date Posted: 18/Sep/2007 at 10:23am
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As per march 07, promoter company and tata group companies hold 60.61%. with this 29.29% tata's stake will be at 90%. This company holds 49.9 % in tata securities ltd also. Is this a step towards de-listing? |
Posted By: agrawalr
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2007 at 4:44am
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Congratulations to all who scored on this, including me. Peter Lynch says you must have couple of high dividend players on the portfolio, TIL was one of te good choice. It was started as a holding company by tata, but eventually it started reducing its tata holding and started adding non-tata companies. Recently management expressed that they are moving owards private equity style of investing. Again,like any other holding company this can not be valued on P/E basis - this could be either looked as close ended fund, similar to Morgan stanly growth fund which trades at discount to NAV say 20-30%. Or it could be looked at as a holding company which trades at 40-50% discount, similar to Balmer Lawrie investments. The discount depends on complexity of holding and purpose of holding company and possibility of value unlocking. As already mentioned on dividend front TIL has given us 90 Rs as dividend in last 6 years. The price in 2001 was 100 and adjusting bonus it is 900 today so clean 9 bagger. Even if one take just dividend it is 100% return in 5 years. Not so conservative numbers ... In rear view it all looks so simple, so lets not talk about it - whats ahead. 1. Why tata sons is buying back - Increase stake in tata companies in easy way. - Consoliate all finance related tata companies - Unlock value in unlisted tata companies - Possible delisting ( though I don't think so ) 2. What will public respose to this offer - It all depends who is holding it. If it is in strong hands they will not tender it and that may force tata to raise offer price. 3. Is this a reasonable offer If one just look at NAV of listed companies then it may look like some what fair. But if one consider holdings in companies like Tata Securities, tata sons, Tata teleservices, and many other unlisted players then it is not fair. At the same time tata wants to gain more control on the company so they should pay premium. So no clear answer - I think it is not a fair price but one may need to be highly patient for next exit opportunity and delisting could also be possible. Personally, I am not giving my investment at such price and will to wait till they open the cards. 4. What will happen after open offer - First we need to see what is response to it. secondly, price will fall back to 450-525 range. Expect positive news like consolidation, listing of unlisted companies - or stake sale. TIC has already agreed to sell Tata securities's stake to tata sons which they bought from TD waterhouse some time in 2005. 5. What is the fair price ? 500 is fair price as long as it is valued as homding company or closed ended fund, but as close ended have to pay NAV at the end of the game, holding companies have to pass full value post selling stake - TI must pay full price which in my personal opinion is at least 1000. The book value of unlisted companies is around 300 cr, few good points when went through recent annual report - book value of listed players is around 600 cr and market value is around 2000 cr - so 300 cr worth unlisted investment should be worth at least 1000 Cr. Infact it should be far more. Rules of the game has changed here - 5% dividend player and better than mutual fund investment has suddenly become growth player. Except the fact that they had to pay MAT taxes unlike MF, every time I looked to sell it I found it better than MF. They are true long term investors , and not only know the business but also run few of them. |
Posted By: kattur
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2007 at 9:50am
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After the buy back offer closes, is the price of the share likely to come down. I bought a measly quantity six months back and before I could add to it, the price has run up.
Any idea how much is held by MFs and institutions? Are they likely to tend it in this offer
------------- kattur |
Posted By: ashwin.adsouza
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2007 at 10:02am
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Vinod,
This is not a company with operating assets, but is of a holding company for the TATA group. Here if you compare the EPS, it will always be very low and PE ratio wont be good idea to compare either.
You will have to do a sum of the parts analysis for this company, basically find out the holdings of the company, calculate the NAV of these assets and apply a holding company discount of atleast 30% to get the notional value of the company. This will involve a lot of work, i think
 .Kattur - I will consider the move by TATAs as a eye opener, and maybe this stock will be ready for take off, since the TATAs might be making every effort to take this company private. A reverse book building might be in the offing, 6-9 months down the line. Price wise the current NAV might be the trick, but remember a lot of Unlisted assets are also held by this company.
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Posted By: dhanabbal_g
Date Posted: 24/Sep/2007 at 11:35am
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"TIC has already agreed to sell Tata securities's stake to tata sons which they bought from TD waterhouse some time in 2005." --------They are not going to sell entire 49.9%. only a part sale as per latest annual report i suppose. |
Posted By: agrawalr
Date Posted: 26/Sep/2007 at 4:00am
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Dear Friends, as I mentioned earlier a report which I read in Fortune sometime back is attched here which should provide enough backgroud to make appropriate call. In the hallowed precincts of Bombay House, the headquarter of the Tata group since 1924, Fortune India’s Paresh Nautiyal had a very insightful meeting with the top management team of Tata Investment Corporation Limited, one of Tata group’s less known company. Under the chairmanship of Mr. N.A Soonawala, widely regarded as one of the financial genius of Indian industry, the team of Mr. M.J Kotwal (Executive Director and Secretary, Mr. J.H Talsania, (Chief Investment Officer) and Mr. Shatayu Mehta, (Manager Investments) has been leading the company towards its goal--creation of shareholder value through long term investment. The interiors of “Bombay House” reflect the old world charm and the top management is nothing less than gentlemanly in their conduct. At the same time, the aura of changing and exciting times is unmistakable when one comes across Mr. N.A Soonawala, Chairman of Tata Investment Corporation, who epitomizes the Tata philosophy of excellence, integrity and understanding in his persona when he explains the history of the company. “Tata Investment Corporation Limited (TICL) was promoted by Tata Sons in 1937 as The Investment Corporation of India Limited, partly to assist in the promotion of new companies and projects, and partly to act as an investment company. It has now evolved into a full-fledged investment company with long-term exposure to a wide range of industries. Before words like private placement or early stage investment became popular, the company had made investment in many companies and nurtured them. Some of these were SKF Bearings, Indian Organics, National Rayon, Ceat Tyres, CARE etc.” The company went public in 1959 and company has been steadily progressing since then. Tata Sons, together with other group companies, holds today over 60 per cent of the total paid up capital of the company, with the balance being held by the public. As on date, its total investment is worth well above Rs 2200 crore, reflecting investment in 229 companies (quoted and unquoted) as also in mutual-funds, debt instruments and venture capital funds. With winds of change blowing across the financial landscape of India, Tata group and TICL are preparing for more exciting times ahead without, however, loosing their perspective of long term investment. Mr M.J Kotwal Executive Director elucidates the point, “Tata investment will continue to stick to its core play which is long term investment but is open for new opportunities which may come along. Private equity is one of those places where we are not averse to venture into, provided the investments fit our parameters and values”. Commenting on media reports on restructuring of financial service businesses of Tata group , Mr. Kotwal says “TICL would be divesting its stake in Tata Securities to Tata Capital, which would act as an umbrella organization for all financial services activities of the group save for insurance, investments and mutual fund. Tata Capital, which has a pan-India presence through more than 40 branches, would be active in merchant banking, equity broking, consumer and vehicle finance, mutual fund distribution etc.” Mr Kotwal is the Chairman of Tata Securities Ltd. Mr. J H Talsania, Chief Investment Officer, brings out the uniqueness of TICL when he says “TICL is a unique company with no exact peer in the market. It is more like a close-ended mutual fund with some advantages like a very low operating cost as we have a very small team and unlike mutual funds we don’t charge any asset management fee. We have an advantage over mutual funds in that we do not face redemption pressure nor the pressure to compare ourselves with other funds on a monthly basis, so we can plan and implement our long term investment strategy in a manner that fund managers with mutual funds might not be able to do. At the same time, however, we do have to pay taxes like MAT unlike mutual funds which imposes a burden on us”. Elaborating the same theme, Mr. Shatayu Mehta, Manager Investments says “as a fund manager in TICL our mandate is very clear: we park our money in companies with a minimum view of three to five years and actively monitor our investments. Unlike mutual funds, we are not much concerned if our investments don’t perform for two or three months.” There is no sectoral bias in TICL’s investments. Explains Mr. Soonawala, “sectors come and go. The market over- or undervalues sectors. We do not have a hard and fast sectoral view as performance of the sector and government policies towards it change. A sector wise bias is something which we avoid as companies in any sector may be good up to a price but not beyond it.” The company portfolio reflects a slight bias towards investment in Tata group companies. This is more due to historical and less due to strategic reasons, says Mr. Kotwal and points out that TICL holdings in group companies are coming down every year. The net asset value (NAV) of the company’s equity share as on 31st March 2007 works out to Rs 588 per share based on market value of quoted equity shares and the book value of unquoted investments. The big question today on everybody’s mind is how to unlock the value in unquoted investments. Mr. Soonawala says that some of these investments are doing very well and may go public in near future. For example, “we do have investment in say Credit Analysis and Research Ltd, which I do believe has plans to come to market and seeing the valuations which CRISIL got , CARE may give good returns”. Among other unquoted investments which could yield surprisingly large returns are those in Tata Industries, Tata Sons, Tata Asset Corporation, Tata Autocomp etc. However, the listing decision here would totally depend on Tata Sons. The company also has a stake in Nahar Capital, a spin off of Nahar Spinning, which may enter the markets after gaining necessary approvals. Other surprise in store could be the stake in GVK Industries Ltd, Indian Seamless Enterprises and Trinity Die Forgers. In the year ended March 2007, the total income of the company increased by 20% to Rs 204.14 crore against RS 170.88 crore in the previous financial year, while its profit after tax increased almost by the same amount/percentage, from Rs 164.59 crore to Rs 197.73 crore, as the total expenditure remained almost unchanged at Rs 6.4 crore against Rs 6.29 crore in the previous year. I In the quarter ended June 2007, the company has reported a net profit of Rs. 39.59 crore on a net income of Rs 43.5 crore. As per latest information available to us, the market value of quoted securities have increased by 18% to Rs 2172 crore outperforming BSE- 200 index during the period. |
Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 26/Sep/2007 at 7:04am
| Since inception of this thread I mistakenly use to read it as 'Tata Investment : You cannot make money here'. |
Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 27/Dec/2007 at 11:13pm
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Agrawal,
Thankyou for the great analysis. It was very enlightening. I was also lucky enough to have a holding in this gem and am not planning to offer my stake now. I guess I will wait it out and enjoy the ride while I can!! One question though, if this does delist, then will the shareholders be rewarded appropriately? Atleast with a price close to fair value? ------------- kannan |
Posted By: agrawalr
Date Posted: 29/Dec/2007 at 8:33pm
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In my opinion chances of delisting are very low. Very reason that Tata sons wants to raise the stake in TICL is to indirectly raise the stake in other tata group company.You may have observed,not only Tata,many other promoter groups are raising stakes in companies to protect against take-over problem. If TICL has to delist, then I believe they would give fair price to investors,though as I understand the price discovery will be based on average price over a given period of time. If Tata Sons lists the unlisted holdings then the M.price will go up substantially, any open offers there on, or delisting price will be higher than current price. In any case, you can expect around 700 in worst case. Tata's has never been unfair with the investors in the past. 350 Cr invested in listed companies is worth 2200 Cr, rest 350 Cr is invested in unlisted companies. I believe the unlisted part is worth more than 2200 Cr. Only question is when and how they unlock the value of this unlisted part. In last 5 years, this was a 7 bagger stock - don't keep that sort of expectation. |
Posted By: kannanravi1
Date Posted: 29/Dec/2007 at 3:13am
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You are right...I think delisting risk is very low and Tata is a very investor friendly company. They will keep investor sentiments in mind. I am currently looking at another investment company similar to TICL. It is called Industrial and Prudential Investment Corporation. It is currently available at a steep discount to its NAV. My only concern is lack of triggers for value unlocking. Here is the thread:
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=850&PN=1 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=850&PN=1 ------------- kannan |
Posted By: ashwin.adsouza
Date Posted: 18/Jan/2008 at 6:08am
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It seems the open offer came a cropper. Less then 11K shares were tendered at a price of 600. Will the Tata's raise the price, that needs to be seen. Link: http://www.nseindia.com/content/corporate/TATAINVEST_POPA_16012008.zip |
Posted By: gopal
Date Posted: 23/Mar/2008 at 9:19pm
In 2001 the share holders had traded Tata sons among each other at
Rs 7,20,000 a share
In 2003 Tata's had given a private buy back offer of about Rs8,00,000 a share to the private share holders, but news was that very few shares could be purchased since people did not surrender.
By the way is tata investment still a good investment after drop of its price and overall drop of tata company shares
------------- Women are like the stock market Coz they're irrational n can bankrupt u if u're not careful |
Posted By: srinivasan
Date Posted: 24/Mar/2008 at 10:55pm
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Going through the balance sheet of the company, i think this is one company where we can expect atleast 30% CAGR return in coming years. Also, there is every possibility of TATA's looking for a delisting of the company in near future ------------- srini |
Posted By: SORUB
Date Posted: 18/May/2008 at 3:42pm
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Tata Investment Corporation will be raising a total of Rs 723 crore through a rights issue of Zero-coupon Convertible Bonds (with Warrants) (ZCB).
Through the rights issue the company would raise a sum of Rs 448 crore in 2008 and possible another Rs 275 crore in 2011, said a company statement on Bombay Stock Exchange. The company has decided to offer one ZCB for every five shares at the face value of Rs 650. The ZCB will have three parts, while the first two will automatically and compulsorily convert into one Ordinary share of Rs 10 at a premium of Rs 290 and Rs 340 in October 2008 and 2009, respectively. The third part will consist of detachable warrant, which can be purchased by the holder, at his option, against a price of Rs 400 for one ordinary share in April 2011. If these warrants are exercised the company would receive a sum of Rs 275 crore as mentioned. ---------------------------------- is it worth going for this? basantji ur comments needed  ------------- K.I.S.S(keep it simple silly) is the most easy management formula i ever came across!!! but it is very hard to follow!!! |
Posted By: iali307
Date Posted: 06/Sep/2008 at 2:16pm
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basant ji what is the latest comment on TICL from you? |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Sep/2008 at 3:52pm
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Not seen it of late but have realised that companies with investments will trade at a doiscount and appear cheap! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: chaudhuris
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2008 at 5:43am
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Basant, I am curious - is there a reason why companies with investments will trade at a discount? Did you mean that for companies like Tata Investments with so-called "illiquid" investments (read - investments in other Tata companies that they are unlikely to sell) or any investment company? I wonder whether Tata Investments can be considered a bargain at this point. It is available at a price below the ZCCB if you factor in the dividends you are going to get for the next 3 years. I do have a suspicion that the market may drive the price down a wee bit further. ------------- Only when the last tree has been cut down Only when the last river has been poisoned Only when the last fish has been caught Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. ~ Cree Philosophy |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 20/Oct/2008 at 7:03am
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They are cheap and remain that way unless the parent makes an open offer which they did last year. On a dividend yield basis they have a higher yield but it has been that way since long.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: chaudhuris
Date Posted: 21/Oct/2008 at 4:51am
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I view Tata Investments as a combination of two different companies. One is as one of their holding companies for Tata group company shares including acting as a VC for some of their ventures. The low side of this is that unlocking value of these shares may not happen often or at all. The high side is that value unlocking will bring in a lot of money. The second way I view TICL is as the entity that runs the Tata Mutual Fund family. In this way they are similar to the Legg Masons of the world. I find the Tata funds as a decent mutual fund family but more knowledgeable folks can perhaps speak more. I suppose Alfred Herbert is a somewhat similar company in this respect. The manufacturing part of it is a bonus. Its share holdings are its real value but the question is - will we see any value unfolding there? My worry with TICL is the same. ------------- Only when the last tree has been cut down Only when the last river has been poisoned Only when the last fish has been caught Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. ~ Cree Philosophy |
Posted By: kanpalan1
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2009 at 2:11pm
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Basant, Do you still recommend TIC at the CMP (INR 213 on 05 Feb 2009) ? (for a risk averse long term investor) Regards, Kandhasami |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 05/Feb/2009 at 2:20pm
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No. I learnt that there are some cheap stocks which never become expensive.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: gbhupesh
Date Posted: 30/May/2009 at 2:05am
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I am developing understanding that such stock may prove very good if bought at such opportune time. It bought at Kandhasami' mentioned price 212 .. one can continue getting 7% dividend, it may be increasing year after year, also if company can increase book value by another 15% compounded .. it will turnout a very good stock. ( reported book value in TIC does not give good indication of underlying value .. also probably it can not be compared from one year to another. In TIC Investment are valued at min of investment price or book value of the underlying security, if they keep a stock for long time it' value in books does not increase) If you look past Market Price performance .. CMP @ ( split adjusted price) First week April 2003 - 50 First week April 2004 - 125 First week April 2005 - 205 First week April 2006 - 450 First week April 2007 - 341 First week April 2008 - 485 First week April 2009 - 250 |
Posted By: neerajlulla
Date Posted: 31/Jul/2009 at 5:49pm
sell this  ------------- buy and forget for long term |
Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2009 at 9:14pm
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Annual reports are hard to come by. The company doesn't seem to have its own website.
------------- |
Posted By: gbhupesh
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2009 at 9:23pm
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You may send a mail to [email protected] along with postal address, they will send you AR by post.
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Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2009 at 9:36pm
Thanks! Samir will also be happy to know this. ------------- |
Posted By: Monkey
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2009 at 10:15pm
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There are quite a few simple things about this company which I find very strange.
Company does not have its own web site. In these days and time, it is indeed very strange for some one belonging to India's most prominent group.
If it is possible to send report by post, what is problem in putting the report on a web site? They can very well put the report on Tata group's home web page.
I do not udnerstand what was the need for company to raise capital via right issue of zero coupon convertible bonds with detachable warrants in October '08. Proceeds of this issue were invested in stock market. Timing wise, it is smart move to raise money and invest in October '08. However, do share holders really interested in playing market through company raising fund?
As a result of this bond issue, paid up equity would increase from 34.46 cr to 48.24 cr in March '10. In addition to this, there would also be a warrant per share exercisable in month of April '11. This would further dilute the equity.
Such things make me uncomfortable in investing in this company.
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Posted By: funkyappu
Date Posted: 29/Nov/2009 at 10:28pm
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I agree with you Monkey jee.
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Posted By: Bhupan
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2009 at 7:18pm
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Hi Teddies , Any idea why did the debt value suddenly jump ??i have a http://www.moneycontrol.com/financials/tatainvestmentcorporation/balance-sheet/TIC - link that states the debt was 447 cr . < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> |
Posted By: chriskb
Date Posted: 30/Nov/2009 at 7:35am
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Bhupan:
447 crores is not really a debt, it is the amount received from ZCCB (Zero Coupon Convertible bonds). This amount should disappear once TIC distributes the shares to ZCCB holders.
Monkey:
TIC rises money to invest in several ventures. They have not done anything that is detrimental to shareholder value. Trust them.
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Posted By: gbhupesh
Date Posted: 01/Dec/2009 at 2:27pm
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You may also get good information from DRAFT LETTER OF OFFER for ZCCB filed in July 08. http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/tatadraft.pdf |
Posted By: nazgul
Date Posted: 01/Dec/2009 at 2:59pm
you can get the details of quarterly, half yearly and annual reports here http://www.tata.com/investordeskExt.aspx?pgUrl=http://www.contentlinks.asiancerc.com/tata/CompanyProfile.asp?CompanyCode=14090012&TickerName=TataInvCorpn&CompanyName=Tata+Investment+Corporation+Ltd.&MajorSector=1 ------------- I don't do funds, i do fundas. |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2009 at 3:11pm
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I have procured a E-copy of the annual report for tata investment for year ended march 2009... if any one is serously interested, kindly PM me your email and i will be happy to send you a copy... the entire reports is about 1/2 Mb. best wishes,
samir. ------------- |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2009 at 3:13pm
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In the report ending 2007, the owned 50 percent of Tata securities (mutual fund biz of tatas) but in new report i find no mention whatsoever of tata securities.. so are they out of this biz now and operating only as a investment company?
is there anyone here, thats been following this company for very long.
Best wishes,
Samir. ------------- |
Posted By: hit2710
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2009 at 6:20pm
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This is a retirement kind/mutual fund kind of stock for those who are not aggressive in their approach.
Market cap in Aug 06 when this thread was started was around 1160 crores and index was at 11700. Currently market cap is around 1927 crores and index levels are around 17000.(one can add some more value for the dividends paid in between) It seems to have bettered the index by some extent, but it will never become the multibagger kind of stock. In the market turmoil between Oct08-March09 it was languishing between 200-250 and currently when index has more than doubled, stock has also roughly doubled. In a nutshell, anyone wanting to earn more than the sensex, it doesn't make sense to invest in this stock. (unless some positive surprise comes in the form of open offer/delisting) ------------- Stockmarket is a weird place. For every person who buys a stock there is a person who sells it and both think they are very smart. |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 12/Dec/2009 at 8:07am
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i certainly hope that there is no open offer/delisting plans for this company.
But you are correct, its a long term hold , slow and steady return kind of stock and not a stock that can give one some kind of short term game or become a multibagger.
If one is looking to add some mutual funds, then one can certainly look at this one too...
As far as their mutual fund business is concerned, which was under tata securities, i believe now that is gone, as tata securities is a 100 percent subsidary of tata capital and now tata capital has become a 100 percent subsidary of tata sons, so it seems at some stage, TIC let that biz go and now is only a investment based company.
All said and done, its a good stock (close ended mutual fund, if one pleases) and one can buy to play the overall growth story of the market, with capital allocation which one would otherwise be thinking of putting in mutual funds anyway.....and yet.. one never knows......
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Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 13/Dec/2009 at 10:32am
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Thought i would buy more TIC by method of buying some warrants, which are convertible into shares by paying rs.400.00 per warrant.
I note though, that there is a constant buyer for the same at rs.100- rs.108.00 price range,
hence making price of tic share in 2011 at 400+108= 508.00
CMP of TIC in the meanwhile is 470.00 and one dividend will get declared before warrants become eligible to be converted into shares.
I am wondering if its just better to buy the shares now (i have already) but for further exposure, would it be better to just buy the shares now, or also buy some warrants to give oneself a chance to buy more shares in 2011.
While the buyer is there, no sellers at this price range, or very very little, so am wondering what meaning i should take out of this?
best wishes,
samir. ------------- |
Posted By: ravibhoopal
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2009 at 7:57pm
Hi Samir,
Can you please provide me some information on the mode through which any warrants can be bought or sold. Can we do this through our online broker or we need to directly buy it from exchange?
Regards
Ravi ------------- You think you can or you can't both ways you are right |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 14/Dec/2009 at 8:58am
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This is the code for tata investment warrants....
INE672A13013
Ask your broker to punch this into his computer, and warrants sale purchase data will show up... same for online accounts..although i dont use an online account myself.
So if it shows up, you can easily buy, if not, then you have to work a bit harder.
Same with warrants of any other company, you just have to know the code or your broker if he is good at his job can find it for you.
Best wishes,
samir. ------------- |
Posted By: ravibhoopal
Date Posted: 21/Dec/2009 at 8:50pm
Thanks Samir. ------------- You think you can or you can't both ways you are right |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 21/Jan/2010 at 3:12pm
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Better Q on Q result, NAV December 31st= Rs.765.00.
Interim dividend of rs.15 per share declared , record date is 2nd Feb, payable before 18th Feb.
All in all ,
Everything is looking good.
Best wishes,
samir. ------------- |
Posted By: gbhupesh
Date Posted: 21/Jan/2010 at 6:14pm
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as in above discussion warrant conversion price of 400/- and current NAV @ 765 .. this will bring down net NAV after conversion.. |
Posted By: chriskb
Date Posted: 21/Jan/2010 at 6:16am
| NAV will not come down much - warrant amount received that is shown as debt will be adjusted against conversion. |
Posted By: khin007
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2010 at 3:27pm
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is it worth to buy at current market value of 500 for long term investment ? please help
------------- Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. Warren Buffett |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2010 at 4:57pm
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Nav of 765 was in end of december quarter.. i am pretty sure it will be above 800 or around for end of march quarter.
There is no saying when a stock is worth buying or not.. its only at 510 or so , last few months the lowest it showed was about 425 and that was in october, in the jan to feb end fall, the lowest it showed was about 445-450.. in the meanwhile, in feb, 15 rupees dividend per share was also declared.
So one could keep waiting for that 450ish kind of price to come.. or one could buy a small quantity and then keep a close watch and buy if one gets the opportunity (it is the the share market after all, and all kinds of opportunities keep arising all the time).. although , this is a stock to be held over a long term and i dont expect any special miracles happening price action wise very soon.. but very low floating stock (ie common public are holding lesser and lesser as the months are passing) and it is being devoured by HNIs and other private investment kind of companies ... and is a good long term bet.
In fact, buy only the amount you think you will never want to sell.. atleast thats what my idea into buying TIC was.. ------------- |
Posted By: sainivas
Date Posted: 11/Aug/2010 at 3:19pm
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Big move up today.
Is it applying for a banking license? ------------- Agey Dekho |
Posted By: bihisello
Date Posted: 11/Aug/2010 at 3:32pm
| That won't be the reason. |
Posted By: Bhupan
Date Posted: 04/Dec/2010 at 1:21pm
Basant saab and Teddies, Looks to me , that Tata folks have listened to Teddies . Now they have a website . Here is website http://www.tatainvestment.com/index.asp - Link . The stock price seems to have been going steadily with the market . A question for everyone following this stock. Website gives companies holdings in Tata Steel, Tata Motors, Hotels and Tata Power. anyone having an idea about % holdings. |
Posted By: Monkey
Date Posted: 04/Dec/2010 at 1:44pm
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Bhupan,
Thanks for bringing this to attention. I struggled sometime back to get their annual report. It was nice to see their latest report on their web site.
To answer your question, schedule-E of annual report provides details of their entire holding in various companies. However, these details are as of March end and could have changed since then.
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Posted By: chriskb
Date Posted: 06/Dec/2010 at 9:24am
| NAV Rs 965/share (pre tax) as of Sep 30, 2010. |
Posted By: excel_monkey
Date Posted: 22/Dec/2010 at 5:46pm
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Some details on Tata empire
http://www.ximb.ac.in/~jcr/Tata%20Sons.pdf |
Posted By: om2112
Date Posted: 10/May/2011 at 2:52pm
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Posted By: om2112
Date Posted: 10/May/2011 at 3:15pm
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Latest NAV was Rs 795 per share.Last tranche of warrants were allotted for rs 400.So,with the last equity dilution latest equity is 55 cr and promoter holding increased to 75 per. In a nutshell,last three years stock performance was affected by equity dilution( by 60 per) and poor earnings growth.With latest fund infusion it might move steadily from here onwards.  
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Posted By: Bhupan
Date Posted: 25/May/2011 at 12:48pm
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RBI has made set of guidelines on financial holding companies . How does it affect this stock ? thoughts and ideas will be appreciated |
Posted By: kmukul
Date Posted: 27/Apr/2012 at 5:06pm
| Do you know if it holds tata motors and if so whats the stake? |
Posted By: arjun
Date Posted: 28/Apr/2012 at 12:05pm
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Its there in the annual report. quantity of share and amount invested http://www.tatainvestment.com/annual_report.asp |
Posted By: smarar
Date Posted: 21/May/2012 at 1:27pm
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http://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachHis/Tata_Investment_Corporation_Ltd_180512_Rst.pdf - Results declared . NP low this year as compared to last year. For this , please see the " notes " at the bottom of the financial statement . Dividend hike by 31% this year as compared to last year due to platinum jubilee. dividend per share is Rs21/- for this year .
------------- Patience always helps. Do your own research when investing in stocks |
Posted By: smarar
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2012 at 4:55pm
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http://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachHis/Tata_Investment_Corporation_Ltd_030812_Rst.pdf - Results are out NAV is 725 per share ------------- Patience always helps. Do your own research when investing in stocks |
Posted By: chriskb
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2012 at 10:10am
| NAV = 820/share before taxNAV = 725/share after tax |
Posted By: smarar
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2012 at 5:52pm
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http://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachLive/Tata_Investment_Corporation_Ltd1_291012_Rst.pdf - Results out NP after tax this quarter as compared to last year 's same quarter increased by approx 3%. ------------- Patience always helps. Do your own research when investing in stocks |
Posted By: samirarora
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2012 at 6:53pm
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The NAV is Rs.790.00 as on 30-9-2012. This is after a Rs.21 per share dividend paid in August of 2012.
many investments are counted at book value in total NAV. ------------- |